Exactly. I'd that just because they write a story of people with debt problems I get the creepy feeling the next thing is a gubmint program to "deal " with it. This means more debt for the gubmint as they hire paycheck for life employees to dole out benefits. The idea of course is to put them back on their feet so they can make a contribution to he gubmint and then we all get rich together again. Except it never happens. They just take more people out of the ranks of those paying for themselves, and turn them into a permanent dependent class. And the debts pile up, and more stories are printed, and more programs installed to fix it, and more debt and round and round we go.

OK Who dies richer. The person with 2 million in the bank, or the one that owes 2 million.

I'm willing to bet it is near 50%... how many people surveyed were actually honest.

Like the old joke says, if you owe the bank $1,000 and you can't pay it back, you're in trouble. If you owe the bank $1,000,000 and you can't pay it back, the bank's in trouble.

;-)

These articles just make me angry. I have a good friend who always complains that her and her husband never have money, yet, they are always going out to dinner at nice restaurants, buying breakfast on the way to work. A 3pm Starbucks. I just want to pound it into their heads – stop spending money you don’t have! Drives me crazy. People want to blow off getting a good education or working hard in their careers for partying when they are younger, but that will catch up with you. I’ve been saving since my first job, work hard and have the money to show for it. You are in control of your own destiny.

One of the problems I see is that some people don't understand how to use a credit card properly; and companies are thrilled about that because potentially you buy things from them you would not have if you had only cash in your pocket. A credit card should be used for convenience only, in place of money that you already have set aside for the purchases you wish to make. Otherwise debt mounts up very quickly.

It's kind of like playing with chips in Vegas. Chips don't look like real money, so the mind says they are just playthings and don't really represent next month's rent payment or the children's college fund.

I think charge cards were a big mistake in the beginning, but we can't function very well without them in society now.

I am one of those people who still believes in using cash for purchases. I do not like credit cards and have only one that I use for travel or on-line purchases. The bill always gets paid off at the end of the month. I do not buy things that I do not have the money in the bank to pay for. I figure that if I have the money in my pocket to buy something then I can afford it. If I do not have the money then I save up until I do. I would never use a credit card to buy non-essentials. People who go out buying big screen TVs, iPhones, the latest tablet computers, taking expensive vacations, etc. on credit are only digging themselves a hole. They do not think about, and some do not even realize, what this means as far as the price they end up paying for that purchase. They end up paying two or three times the actual purchase price by the time all the interest gets factored in. I understand that some people get into credit card debt because they lost their job and were using a credit card to put food on the table. These people, however, are the minority of those with big credit card debt. Most of the people with big credit card debt ran up the debt buying non-essentials that they could have lived without. People do not want to wait and save for things, they want them now and run up debt that is completely avoidable.

I use credit cards for most of my purchases unless they only take cash. I pay the card off at the end of the month. I've been doing that for over 10 years. The CC companies hate me. Get the points and never pay them a dime in interest or late fees.

Sounds like the federal government. Owing more than it saves.

Folks saving money, or not as it were, has been this way for the 35 years i've been in the work force. I watched and listened to more people make fun of me for saving while they blew through their earnings like drunken sailors.

35 years later, having gone without a little bit, now i have a nice nest egg, they have nothing and are pi$$ed off about it. And i should feel sorry for them why?

1 in 4 Americans have more credit card debt than savings - I guess this is the new American way.

And then, our fearless Indebter-In-Chief will blame everybody's problems on the so-called rich because they aren't paying their fair share - never mind the fact that half our nation doesn't pay federal income taxes. Heaven forbid we actually encourage any personal responsibility in this country.

Thanks Owebama - way to lead by example!

Realist - 1 in 4 Americans have more credit card debt than savings - I guess this is the new American way. Thanks Owebama!

And just how is this our President's fault?

If you have to ask the question, then it's not worth explaining to you. But just for kicks...

... because he is instilling in our American culture a lack of fiscal responsibility - racking up 6 trillion in 4 years, and then has the audacity to 1) refuse to admit to a spending problem, and 2) blame the so-called rich people for not paying their fair share.

Lesson learned is that if you're in too deep financially, don't worry you don't have to curtail spending. Besides, it's somebody else's fault.

I find it hard to believe 55% of Americans are that responsible with their money. I hope its true, but my gut tells me it more like 35-40%. My question is, what is considered a "rainy day fund", in my definition it would be cash only, of which I have very little, thus by my own definition I would put myself in the 24% group. BUT if you add investments, some of which are very liquid, others not so much, I have 6 figures worth. Quite frankly, I don't know that having toomuch in a emergency fund is smart say more than $5-10K. I think a better safety net now is physical commodities (groceries) that can be consumed if he value of the dollar plunges in response to inflation. The Fed action of quantitative easing is a fools game, which sooner or later will trigger run-away inflation.

This is only credit card debt. Imagine what would happen if mortgages, cars, student loans, etc were factored in. Probably 9/10 ths of the population would have more debt than savings.

"enamored"...??? seriously??...does the writer even know what that means?? ....I seriously doubt these folks are in love with their debt....where did this guy go to school????

Definition of enamored (adj)

bing.com · Bing Dictionary

en·am·ored
[ in ámmərd ]

1. in love with somebody: inspired with love or passion for somebody
2. captivated: charmed, fascinated, or captivated by somebody or something

#1.13 Realist - If you have to ask the question, then it's not worth explaining to you. But just for kicks... because he is instilling in our American culture a lack of fiscal responsibility - racking up 6 trillion in 4 years

Thank you for taking time out of your busy day to answer my foolish question. First, it's really okay to respond to a comment without being rude. Secondly, you are wrong. It's the Bush administration that recklessly sent us into two unfunded wars that caused our current monstrous financial situation.

Do democrats really believe that?

Realist- People are being more responsible with their money since Obama was elected and you think that is a bad thing?

Hard to at 1.14 makes a good point bout liquid assets vs cash. Either the pollster or the reporter doesn't know these things. So they ask a question about cash and the get answers about cash. They shoulda asked about cash and liquid assets. But if you aren't qualified to be dealing with personal financial matters - you aren't qualified. They don't teach that in journalism school.

#1.9 DickCranium - I use credit cards for most of my purchases unless they only take cash. I pay the card off at the end of the month. I've been doing that for over 10 years. The CC companies hate me. Get the points and never pay them a dime in interest or late fees.

As do I. I've never paid a finance charge. Credit card companies refer to us as "deadbeats" because they never make any money off of us.

Credit card Co's do not hate you. They make money from your business. How ? They charge the merchant usury fees for your transactions. Those reward points are paid for plus a profit to the Card Co's. The merchant pays the bank. Where does the merchant get the money ? Ans: it's buried in the price the customers pay. There is no free lunch.

Sounds like someone I know ... wait, this sounds just like out own government. If it's ok for uncle Sam to run deficits every year the last 15 years,

true, but a household can't print money like the government can.

Apples to Oranges.

actually, the US government CAN NOT just print money to boost their bank balance. the US government is doing the same thing this story is harping on ... borrowing endlessly and hoping the credit limits will continue to be raised into perpetuity. At some point, the nations' "good faith" and dependability is going to run it's course. At some point interest rates will rise. At some point the piper will be paid.

For once STexan.. I have to agree w/you.

I think all Americans are tired of the government kicking the can of deficit spending down the road. I think it's time we demand a balance budget amendment.

@It'sAboutTime

True, but there aren't enough "we" to demand a balanced budget to effectively get around all the "they" who demand free phones, free housing, free food, free medical, free free free. The last "presidential" election proved that.

We've been overprinting money the last few years -- that's why our dollar's value overseas has plummeted.

AND, our dollar buys less and less domestically. Inflation is higher than the government reports (they keep changing the items on the list used to determine price changes), take a look at EVERYTHING in the grocery store.

If the product's price hasn't obviously gone up, you'll note that the price remains rather the same, but the amount of product (weight) per package continues to go down.

CowboyConservative,

True, but there aren't enough "we" to demand a balanced budget to effectively get around all the "they" who demand free phones, free housing, free food, free medical, free free free. The last "presidential" election proved that.

When you get the point where over 50% of the population is receiving some form of government assistance that is what ends up happening.

Just like the college kid who spends like there's no tomorrow... and then a decade later wishes (s)he hadn't, our nation will eventually wake up from it's spending coma and realize that or nation's economy is dead.

The problem is that it will be too late, at which point not even the republicans will be able to help it.

If the nation chooses not to listen to the adult in the room today, it will suffer the consequences tomorrow. It's just unfortunately that the 49% of fiscally resposible people are being sunk by 51% who think it's ok to continue to dish out free stuff to able bodied would-be workers who find it easier to become reliant upon gov't handouts.

Hey, SallyAnn--There are still LOTS and LOTS of people without a job at all who have to rely on credit for daily essentials, like gas & groceries. Not everybody in debt has a Starbucks habit. Don't be so judgmental.

RRS, 1 in 4...that's 25% of the population! The unemployment rate is 7.9% (and that's based on the labor participation rate which is only about 65% - so we're talking an even smaller portion of the total population). Yes, some people without a job are in that situation but the overwhelming majority of the people who'd cc debt exceeds their savings is due to their own poor choices!

So to those in debt, start doing without your starbucks coffee, start brown bagging it to work with your lunch inside the bag. You might be surprise how much you can save in a weeks time if you try.

I love how you assume that most in trouble are buying $5 starbucks lattes and eating out at Chipotle for lunch everyday.

Sure, that may be true of SOME people (most likely younger people) but the vast majority of those without savings are in that situation because their wages from their job (if they have one at all, we're still at roughly 8% unemployment mind you) do not cover even basic household expenses (e.g., food, rent, electricity, water, gas for getting to work, etc.).

I mean seriously. The economic facts are out there. Middle (and lower) class incomes have been stagnant since the 1970's, losing value when accounting for inflation. Yet gas prices, food prices, utilities prices, rent/housing prices, basically EVERYTHING has gotten more expensive (by an order of magnitude) since then.

This is what the people wanted, this is trickle-down economics in action. The rich got a hell of a lot richer, and the poor and middle class are getting poorer by the day.

Yes, some people without a job are in that situation but the overwhelming majority of the people who'd cc debt exceeds their savings is due to their own poor choices!

the median income in this country is around $25k per year. Depending on geography, this will not even buy you the essentials of life.

Again, this is trickle down in action. Wages at the bottom decrease, that's how it's designed in reality. These numbers will get worse before they get better, and no, it's not because 25% of this country are ALL making bad choices (true, SOME are, but the majority are not, they just have no other option).

SallyAnn, you might want to crack open that savings account just a little and pay for a refresher course in English grammar.

jwilson1234 -- You are right. My comment didn't accurately address the number. But DrowningGrover got it EXACTLY right. There are people with low-paying jobs in debt--but not because they can't put aside their needs for immediate gratification. They still have to cover those pesky essentials like gas & groceries, even when their paycheck won't make it all the way.

(Thanks, DG!)

But DrowningGrover got it EXACTLY right.

...

(Thanks, DG!)

No sweat. I can't believe that there are still people out there who buy into the whole notion that ALL poor people are poor through their own moral failings.

Of course some are, that is they are poor because they made poor choices. But a couple that has to declare bankrupcty to pay for cancer treatment is NOT poor through moral failings (medical expenses are the PRIMARY CAUSE of personal bankruptcy in this country).

The MEDIAN income is $25k/year, that means 50% of the working population in this country earns LESS than that. HALF EARN LESS!!

Does little good unless they publish the actual numbers. I highly doubt MOST that have little saving is due to them not making enough to cover their basic living. This would imply that a huge percentage of the population live in poverty. It is much more likely that these people are living beyond their means and could if they CHOSE cut their standard of living and save money. This is though all classes look at all the rich sports stars that go bankrupt.

This would imply that a huge percentage of the population live in poverty.

um, a sizeable portion of this country DOES live in poverty (the census from 2010 estimates 14.3% of the population lives in poverty).

And it certainly can't all be due to personal moral failing of all those individuals (again, i'm absolutely willing to entertain the notion that SOME people living in poverty are there through self-inflicted means.)

The poverty line for an individual is roughly $12k, the MEDIAN income in this nation is $25k/year meaning 50% of the work force earns LESS than $25k. Is it so wrong to suggest that a sizeable chunk of those earning less than the median also fall under the poverty line?

But do those living in poverty even have credit cards? If they do, then I agree that not all the credit card debt referred to in this article is due to Starbucks every morning and 3 huge flat-screen TVs and all the trappings that go with a McMansion, etc. But if those in poverty do not even have credit cards, then they are not included in this article and so yes, I would have to think that most of the credit card debt referred to in this article is "self-inflicted."

But do those living in poverty even have credit cards? If they do, then I agree that not all the credit card debt referred to in this article is due to Starbucks every morning and 3 huge flat-screen TVs and all the trappings that go with a McMansion, etc. But if those in poverty do not even have credit cards, then they are not included in this article and so yes, I would have to think that most of the credit card debt referred to in this article is "self-inflicted."

Fair enough, and a pretty good point hockeymom1111.

In one of my posts I made the concession that those whose credit card debt outweigh their savings are most likely younger people who haven't quite figured out the whole "personal finance" thing, and for those people it can be considered self-inflicted.

But the larger overall point I'm attempting to make is that not all poor people are poor through their own moral failings as many people seem to callously suggest. Nonetheless, you have a good point hockeymom111, thanks for the post (i'll give you an upvote for it).

Is it really that easy for you to judge people that you don't know?

--There are still LOTS and LOTS of people without a job at all who have to rely on credit for daily essentials, like gas & groceries.

Then they should get a job it is pretty dam easy and should have realised that a CC is not an emergency fund.

the median income in this country is around $25k per year. Depending on geography, this will not even buy you the essentials of life.

NO it is 40K for single and 50-55K for married(it has gone down in the last two years.). Do you also know that that number also includes people that are On S.S.? here is a weired number 59% of the people with an income of 25K or less own a home. it was that way in th 90's and is the same today.

OR are you saying from your sorces the median income as fallen 35K in the last 3 years? what is your sorce? and does your sorce include S.S.

Auto is correct.

In the local western state small town paper there are PAGES of employment available adds. But most of the professional welfare receivers will NOT accept entry level jobs because they feel they are too "special" to perform manual labor. Besides without their welfare they couldn't inflate their yearly income on the dozens of credit card solicitations and have all their flat panel TVs, newer SUV's and rental assisted three bedroom, two bath, three car garage homes for little or nothing out of their pocket.

I do believe people need to save something, but my question to you---When do you live and enjoy life, if all you do is work?

No Auto is wrong

I worked for years making less then 40k a year i could barley pay my mortgage and put food on the table for a family of 4. Many times i had to use that credit card to by groceries and gas to make it to next month not to mention i had to use the credit card for medical emergency etc. Not everyone has credit card debt because they don't have a job or don't spend well. I had no cable tv etc. everything we paid for was cost of living. I get sick and tired of people on here being so judgmental of others especially the far right. You don't know any of these people yet they all must be on welfare its the dumbest notion i ever heard I give when i can to the less fortunate and i don't judge anyone for not making ends meet. I am an independent i don't support either party but when i hear conservative talk about religion then in the same breath bad talk the less fortunate it is hypocrisy.

Then they should get a job it is pretty dam easy and should have realised that a CC is not an emergency fund.

In December 2012 there were 3.4 job applicants PER job opening according to the BLS. It peaked at over 6 applicants per job in June 2009. It is mathematically impossible in this economy for everyone who wants a job to obtain one.

http://www.bls.gov/web/jolts/jlt_labstatgraphs.pdf

In the local western state small town paper there are PAGES of employment available adds.

probably because that's not where the unemployed are. Don't pretend like a small "western state" is a good example of the countries employment situation as a whole.

But most of the professional welfare receivers will NOT accept entry level jobs because they feel they are too "special" to perform manual labor. Besides without their welfare they couldn't inflate their yearly income on the dozens of credit card solicitations and have all their flat panel TVs, newer SUV's and rental assisted three bedroom, two bath, three car garage homes for little or nothing out of their pocket.

This is nearly Reagan's "welfare queen" strawman argument to a tee. Not a good indicator of reality in other words.

Cowboy Conservative -- How do you know that?? How do you know that jobs are going unfilled because "professional welfare receivers" will not accept them? This is akin to the myth that welfare moms pop out babies because it is such a financially lucrative gig.

I worked for years making less then 40k a year i could barley pay my mortgage and put food on the table for a family of 4.

Be prepared for the usual suspects to come around calling you lazy, telling you that you have no "personal responsibility," and calling you a "taker."

Nevermind that they have no idea about you, your geographic location, the job you work, the family you raise, your personal (and your families) medical history, or anything related to your finances.

You make X dollars per year, regardless of how little that number actually is they will deride you and tell you how much better they are than you. Wait for it, it's coming in 3...2...1...

I worked for years making less then 40k a year i could barley pay my mortgage and put food on the table for a family of 4.

Why did you have four kids if you couldn't afford them?

Let me guess, that was "the far right's" fault, too?

Hey Jax,

Might want to redo your math there. A family of 4 does not mean there are 4 kids, unless the whole family is made up of kids.

Thanks Sheri...My mistake for assuming he meant 4 kids.

I'll make it easier...Why did you have x number of kids if you knew you couldn't afford them?

Better?

Still waiting for an answer...

Jax

You need to know where babies come from? I hope your not conservative assuming you are against abortion or any kind of birth control then you complain and say people should not have kids? And demand to know why had kids if i cant afford them? Who said i was not making more then 40k when i had the kids? who said i was not doing great and then i got laid off and took what ever job i could find? Lastly its none of your business why i had kids MY POINT IS THAT NOT EVERYONE WHO HAS CREDIT CARD DEBT IS SOME ONE ON WELFARE get the point? Is that hard to understand? For people who go around telling others to learn English seems like most conservatives need English lessons themselves.

DrowningGrover

LOL right on Que got to love it.

DrowningGrover

LOL right on Que got to love it.

to be fair, there was quite a delay before they came from the woodwork.

No hack, my wife and I decided to have just two we knew we could afford. Radical, I know.

But you see, there's this little thing in life called "planning." When you get married, buy a house, have kids...you "plan." Plan for retirement, kids' college, rainy days, emergencies, etc... Saving is downright foreign to most people in this country, and "rainy day" planning is becoming more and more obscure. You have to put enough away to be able to live for durations if you get laid off, there's an illness, or anything else life might throw at you.

YOU were the one who said you worked "for years" at 40k. Did you make more at some point and just decide not to divulge it? Were you fired? Downsized? Or were you making less the time before that?

Where did I say people on credit card debt = people on welfare? Oh that's right, I didn't. You might want to brush up on your own reading skills before you laughably and hypocritically try to tell others to do the same thing. I'd tell you to brush up on understanding family planning and how credit card debt works, but you've obviously already failed at both of those and are too far gone for any help.

Jax A

You cant always plan things to happen at the exact time you want them too thats how things work in life and my wife and I dealt with it. Who said we did not have a savings? Savings dont last for ever if my wife and i did not save when times where good we would have been in a lot more trouble when times went bad we did not plan to have kids as soon as we did but things happen in life. My post was pacifically referring to people making that comment on here if your not saying that then what are you saying? People can still save money and be put in bad situations. If you go back and read my post i said i worked "Worked" meaning at one point in time in my life i worked for less then 40k a year. But of course you will make assumptions on my life with out asking me details then try to circle back and make it seem like you are not being judgmental. Just the fact that you wanted an explanation from me about my family alone shows how judgmental you actually are.

I'd tell you to brush up on understanding family planning and how credit card debt works, but you've obviously already failed at both of those and are too far gone for any help.

LOL see what i mean. Actually I love it please don't try to make rational thoughts and comments. I can also easily assume you never worked a hard day in your life and you where born with a silver spoon so you have no understanding about how life really is. But i would not do something like that since i would not want to make assumptions on your life I could also assume your some 18 year old kid just trolling the forum. Unfortunately you think anyone with credit card debt or children did not do any planning in life. LOL that is some math you got going on there just like a family of 4 = 4 kids.

I Hope you don't go to church considering your casting the first 20 stones.

hak, assume away, why stop embarrassing yourself now?

I worked shoveling neighbor's snow and mowing neighbor's lawns since I was 12. Had fast food jobs, supermarket and other crappy retail jobs throughout high school and college. They taught me a work ethic, and how jobs like that just aren't meant to provide a living.

Unlike someone like you who sits around and whines how rough you have it, I decided to bust my hump in college and get a marketable degree, and then work my way up with more hard work and teaching myself new technologies as I went along.

I don't need to convince anyone how hard I worked because I have the life I worked for. You on the other hand have nothing but excuses as to why your life sucks and why you're in so much credit card debt. People like you always have all kinds of excuses why you're in such miserable debt.

Unlike someone like you who sits around and whines how rough you have it, I decided to bust my hump in college and get a marketable degree, and then work my way up with more hard work and teaching myself new technologies as I went along.

LOL wow now i sit around all day complaining? So you sit around all day complaining about me complaining? Who said my life sucks? i was not complaining my life sucks who says i am still in debt? Please stop embarrassing yourself with your stupid assumptions I don't need to convince anyone either you commented on my post first remember you where so eager to talk down on me remember? or is that to hard for you to understand? I was making a point that people some times end up in bad situations they have no control over. But according to you anyone with credit card debt and children just did not plan right. Dumbest Math i have ever seen not as dumb as a family of 4 = 4 kids though.

hak...this isn't complaining?

I worked for years making less then 40k a year i could barley pay my mortgage and put food on the table for a family of 4. Many times i had to use that credit card to by groceries and gas to make it to next month not to mention i had to use the credit card for medical emergency etc. Not everyone has credit card debt because they don't have a job or don't spend well. I had no cable tv etc. everything we paid for was cost of living

OK, maybe your life is better now, I don't know or care, but YOU were fine ASSuming I never worked for a living, so keep the hypocrisy coming, it goes well with your whining. Instead, I'll just say how you whined about how your life "used to suck."

If you're going to go online and whine about the size of your family and the debt you've had, people are going to ask these kinds of questions. You might want to be able to answer them without looking like a complete idiot.

...Or not, up to you. I have to admit, your idiocy does make it more entertaining, at least. ;)

Please go read my post i did not assume you did not work for a living i said

I can also easily assume you never worked a hard day in your life and you where born with a silver spoon so you have no understanding about how life really is. But i would not do something like that since i would not want to make assumptions on your life

I was specifically saying i would not assume anything about your life wtf is wrong with you can you not read?

I was not whining my life used to suck PLEASE AGAIN READ CAREFULLY i was posting about what auto posted about people with credit card debt and welfare i was just pointing out that just because you have a job does not mean you can always make ends meet. Is that hard to understand?

DrowningGrover et al,

Yes, there are people who have crummy jobs - many millions of them - and it's fair to guess that a large chunk of them will never have a "good" job.

That's why it's important for them to get out of credit card debt!

The first thing to understand is that except for a few starving street-people, the average poor person in this country lives BETTER than the richest of the rich a few hundred years ago. The average poor person lives better than the merely rich of a hundred years ago. The majority of the poor have TVs, refrigerators, microwaves, and a near majority even have air-conditioning The poor are getting plenty to eat - they're the most overweight of us all.! Our sense of what is poor is a relative one. By historical standards, we're all rich.

Here's the important concept - it should be drilled relentlessly into every school-child. People who try to live beyond their means through debt ALWAYS end up living beneath their means! Rather than challenge the innumerate with high school math, suffice it to say that money paid in interest is money you don't have for "stuff". Nothing more needs to be said.

You say you "can't make ends meet"? Why not? Unless you are the poorest of the poor (and if you're posting here, that's not you), then there are people like you who are living on less than you are. I don't know how the poor get by, but they do. Live like the guy who makes less than you do, and save the difference. You'll end up living better than those just like you who don't.

..

I worked for years making less then 40k a year i could barley pay my mortgage and put food on the table for a family of

You need to live in a cheaper place. and cut expenses.

You need to understand the cost of living in this country. There is something called inflation but i don't expect you to understand that.

It must be nice to have your parents pay for everything huh?

See how assumptions are stupid i bet you make a lot of assumptions.

It is a simple fact that you ether need to increase your pay or cut expenses. No comments will change that fact. That is not an assumption. Our cost of food has only increased by $50 a month in the last 6 years and that includes the addition of two kids.

or themselves...100% of personal finanical pain is self inflicted

100% of personal finanical pain is self inflicted

if you're not being sarcastic, you're wrong.

Sure, this may be the case for some people, but certainly not for all. Are you suggesting that a person who's worked a middle class job for 20 years but then has to declare bankruptcy because they get cancer and their treatment is $94,000 PER COURSE and insurance drops them after the first one is entirely at fault?

I mean, I suppose you could consider them at fault cause there didn't sack away $500,000 for a rainy cancerous day, but how would you expect them to when the median income in this country is only $25k/year?

@ Grover.....Anything you do IS your fault. If you have a chitting-paying job, it's your fault. If you have children and cannot save, it's your fault. If you waited until you are 50 to start saving, it's your fault. And yes, if you get sick, it's your fault. It sure isn't mine or anyone else.

And yes, if you get sick, it's your fault.

ladies and gentleman, compassionate conservatism on display for all to see...

@ Grover.....Can you keep your liberal emotion in check for a second and tell us whose fault it is when I get sick? It sure isn't your fault? I just found out that you can get health insurance from Blue Cross Blue Shield for less than $60 per month.

Yes, Grover, being humble enough to admit when one is at fault is very "compassionate conservative" instead of not respecting others by just blaming others for one's OWN faults.

JobSeeker...

It may not be the individuals fault if they get sick. Is is a child's fault when born into the world with severe health issues?

I haven't looked at the $60.00 dollar a month coverage, but I'm going to assume it's not the Cadillac plan with a cap, high deductible and specific v. blanket coverage.

Your view is severely unrealistic...

I just found out that you can get health insurance from Blue Cross Blue Shield for less than $60 per month.

and if you've previously had a bout with breast cancer (cause it's not as if breast cancer has a strongly correlated family history, right?) good luck finding health insurance with such a low premium.

If your mom had breast cancer, and you get it, tough luck. It's your fault, you should have picked better parents!

Yes, Grover, being humble enough to admit when one is at fault is very "compassionate conservative" instead of not respecting others by just blaming others for one's OWN faults.

when somebody who is healthy, hasn't smoked a day in their life, has low BP and isn't obese gets breast cancer (which happens EVERY DAY in this country, and in all countries around the world), it's a little hard to tell that person they're personally at fault (no one is at fault really, it's bad luck). I mean seriously, what are you going to tell them:

"Ah ha, sucks to be you! You're cells shouldn't have replicated like that! Tough cookies, die in poverty scab, you're a 'taker' now!"

Seriously, wtf?

{Above hockeymom1111 has a good point, and I have already conceded that some people have bad personal finances through self-infliction, this is undoubtable and I wouldn't be naive enough to argue it, but can you say the same in the opposite direction? E.g., that some people wind up in destructive personal financial ruin through no volition of their own? Based on your posts, I'm not sure you'd be capable of admitting that, even though it's undeniably true.}

@ Grover....You are straying away from the discussion of health "insurance". Insurance by definition is protection against unexpected disasters, not paying for a disaster that has already happened. It sure would be nice if I can go to an insurance company and buy a homeowner's insurance policy AFTER my house had burned down. Pay the insurance company $1,000 and get a new house. How nice. If you get rid of pre-exisiting conditions, then it is no longer insurance. It is welfare.

Are you suggesting that a person who's worked a middle class job for 20 years but then has to declare bankruptcy because they get cancer and their treatment is $94,000 PER COURSE and insurance drops them after the first one is entirely at fault?

They could have had better insurance.

but how would you expect them to when the median income in this country is only $25k/year?

Your way wrong with that number still.

I mean, I suppose you could consider them at fault cause there didn't sack away $500,000 for a rainy cancerous day,

Tell me the exact number that has had this happen? please tell me how many middle class people racked up 90-500K in medical? it is lower than you think the problem they have is when they have high credit card and other debt and this happens.

Here is our numbers We had 130K debt. Cars, tools,student loans. we paid them off in 4 years our jobs are nothing special My wife is enlisted in the army just made the rank of E-7 and I'm an Auto tech our income last year was 86K.

@ Auto.....I comment you and your wife for your discipline. Paying off $130K in 4 years while making $86K means you had about $55K after taxes, paid off $30K a year, and leaving about $25K to live on. That is truly great discipline. Anyone who says they can't live comfortably on $25K a year needs to re-examine their priorities.

They could have had better insurance.

@ Auto......Excellent point and good advice for anyone who currently has good health. Buy insurance while you can get it cheap due to good health and keep up the premium payments. When disaster hits, you are covered. If you wait until you get sick, it is then too late. It is all about planning. Too many people fail to plan and want to blame others for their problems.

Our taxes were about 5% and My wife re-enlisted to get a 20K bonus and when we were married we had 16K in savings that we used for pay down.

@ Grover....You are straying away from the discussion of health "insurance". Insurance by definition is protection against unexpected disasters, not paying for a disaster that has already happen

...

They could have had better insurance.

that's right. Health insurance rescission and lifetime caps do not exist.

Your way wrong with that number still.

I'll admit, my median income number is wrong as I took the household median income (which is 2 people) and halved it. I know this is not statistically correct as some households earning at the median have only ONE wage earner and thus it's an individual number (if you want to count the 2nd member of the household as having ZERO income, then the individual # would be closer to half of the median household number, but this is not how the calculation is done).

I did lazy math (and i'll own up it) however, because I didn't want to get into a math/statistics argument and the larger point I was making is that middle and lower class incomes have not kept up with even inflation since the 1970's, and that a middle class person today has less purchasing power than they did 30 to 40 years ago. This math is not fuzzy, and is factually correct.

Don't fall into the trap DG is attempting to set. Those of us that busted our tails to make something of ourselves should NEVER be made to feel guilty by those that sat on the couch eating cookies and smelling thier farts. If you are poor - I say 90% of you got what you played for. I AM NOT THE BAD GUY HERE. You are the self-made victims.

Don't fall into the trap DG is attempting to set.

what trap am I trying to set?

Do you deny that medical expenses account for 62% of all personal bankruptcies in this country (link is in a post below). Do you deny that health insurance providers practice rescission and lifetimes caps, and that Wellpoint (for example) specifically targeted breast cancer patients to avoid having to pay for chemo?

Do you deny that middle class income has not kept up with inflation since the 1970's, and that the lower half of the economic ladder is being squeezed regardless of how hard they work or how cautious their decision making is?

Do you deny that wealth inequality has grown sharply over the last 3 decades, and that the bulk of the economic recovery from the "great recession" has gone to the top 1%? Are you happy that the banks got bailed out while the common man was left to get foreclosed on and/or declare bankruptcy?

Do you deny that there are 3.4 job applicants per every available job (in my BLS link above) in this economy and therefore there are people out there who desperately want work but cannot obtain it through cold-hard economic reality?

Do you honestly believe that everyone in this country can be a millionaire simply through hard work and "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps" even though that is mathematically impossible and the money supply does not exist to make that so?

Seriously? Again, I ask. What "trap" am I trying to set by pointing out well reported and publicly available economic indicators?

DrowningGrover et al,

FYI, lifetime caps are now prohibited by ObamaCare. All rescissions will be starting next year, too.

I did lazy math (and i'll own up it) however, because I didn't want to get into a math/statistics argument and the larger point I was making is that middle and lower class incomes have not kept up with even inflation since the 1970's, and that a middle class person today has less purchasing power than they did 30 to 40 years ago. This math is not fuzzy, and is factually correct.

Yes I would say lazy math. here are the median numbers

for single households it is 26K

for households of two people it is 53K

of 3 people it is 62K

of 4 people it is 73K

of 5 people it is 69K

Now if you have a family household it is 61K

however if it is a married household it is 71K

IF the husband is absent it is 48K

If the woman is absent it is 32K

For a non-family household the income is 30K

For people that work full time the median household income is 66K

This is from the 2009 census data so things have gotten better since then.

JobSeeker, there are significant numbers of people who have sacrificed and continue to sacrifice because they were not afforded opportunities to which other people have had access. The working poor sacrifice every day. People yholding down two jobs and still need to rely on some form of assistance sacrifice every day.

Your view of the "American dream" is unrealistic. If it were that accessible, everyone would have been trained in a lucrative trade or attended college and be roaming the middle class world or better.

Real life is far from the assertion you're making.

they were not afforded opportunities to which other people have had access.

What is stopping them?

The working poor sacrifice every day.

Nobody is born "working poor". It is based on decisions one makes.

Your view of the "American dream" is unrealistic.

I ask again. What's stopping you or anyone else?

JobSeeker

I have to agree with you. Nothing is stopping anyone from (using the term) getting ahead except that individual. Yes the working poor sacrifice, so does the middle income working sacrifice, or they should be if they are smart.

Yes, I do realize that sickness can wipe out your savings. But most people in debt aren't in debt because of cancer or some other medical problems. I was, like most of us, given an chance to have a high school education, paid for by my folks, and neighbors, like all children are.

It's what I did while at school, that helped me down the road. I frigging studied my butt off, ended up with a 3.69GPA. I was also a very good softball pitcher, and got a partial scholarship to college.

I worked my way through college, and played softball while doing so. It wasn't easy, but I, and a whole lot of others have also done that. I don't think I was really given anything other students haven't received in the past, or receiving right now.

So this markley about not having a chance that other people had is pure BS. You make your own luck, so to speak. If you get a DUI, I suppose you will blame the bar for serving you too much booze, right? Ever hear of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY?

And no, not everyone is cut out for college, so when people claim they didn't have the assesabilities for college, is that really true. Do you realize how many people drop out of college? Same as high school?

And as for people, thru their own cause, who end up in financal ruin, most likely made some bad choices. And those who end up that way through some other circumstances? Well, yes that does happen at times, but not as much as people would want you to know about.

Lost your house because you lost your job? Gee, I guess some people never heard of: 1st is mortage insurance. 2nd is not buying a house you can't afford. 3rd is not planning ahead for lay-offs.

Yes, anyone who desires, and that is the key word, desires to be RESPONSIBILE for their own life and their way of living, can live that type of lifestyle they want. Without much worry about debt problems.

Yes, I do realize that sickness can wipe out your savings. But most people in debt aren't in debt because of cancer or some other medical problems.

then why are 62% of all personal bankruptcies in this country caused by medical expenses?

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/db2009064_666715.htm

why are 62% of all personal bankruptcies in this country caused by medical expenses?

@ Grover.......I believe that question has already been answered. Get insurance BEFORE unexpected medical expenses occur. It is very afforded if you are healthy. That is when you buy insurance, not after you get cancer. If you go bankrupt because of medical reasons, IT IS YOUR FAULT, and you suffer the consequences for poor planning.

@ Grover.......I believe that question has already been answered. Get insurance BEFORE unexpected medical expenses occur....

If you go bankrupt because of medical reasons, IT IS YOUR FAULT, and you suffer the consequences for poor planning.

From the FIRST PARAGRAPH of the article I linked:

Medical problems caused 62% of all personal bankruptcies filed in the U.S. in 2007, according to a study by Harvard researchers. And in a finding that surprised even the researchers, 78% of those filers had medical insurance at the start of their illness, including 60.3% who had private coverage, not Medicare or Medicaid.

Let me repeat that:

And in a finding that surprised even the researchers, 78% of those filers had medical insurance at the start of their illness

One more time so it sinks in:

And in a finding that surprised even the researchers, 78% of those filers had medical insurance at the start of their illness

Even if you have private insurance, if you get a serious medical condition, your insurance WILL drop you. This is the reality of "health insurance" today, sorry if it doesn't gel with your preconceived notions.

Here let me tell you about Medical insurance. I got pregnant with my daughter in 1996. by the 3rd month I was in the hospital full time. Had her at 5 months. She spent 15 months in ICU and came home with a vent and nursing care. I maxed out 3 insurances in 4 months. finally had to go onto state aid for her because no other insurance company would touch her. I had 3 million dollars of medical debt after "good Insurance" it still can happen. BTW 16 years later the medical debt is paid off. My CC debt is paid off all I have left is mortgage and student loan.

Medical debt can happen to anyone even with "good Insurance"

Medical debt can happen to anyone even with "good Insurance"

no it can't, just ask JobSeeker (and a host of others on this thread). The only people who can go bankrupt from medical expenses are those that make poor choices and choose not to carry insurance until AFTER they get sick.

You shouldn't have had problems during pregnancy or given birth prematurely. Make better choices next time so you don't "suffer the consequences for poor planning." Pull yourself up by your bootstraps dammit!

{Note, this is obviously sarcasm.}

Yeah Grover, just ask me. Again, it's your own fault if you did't read the fine print before you bought the policy. Maxed out? Mine doesn't. It pays everything after the deductible. Dropped policy? You need a lawyer. They can raise your annual premium like they do when you get a car accident, but they can't drop you once the disease is diagnosed. I'm tired of liberals expecting everyone else to be their insurance.

Again, it's your own fault if you did't read the fine print before you bought the policy. Maxed out? Mine doesn't. It pays everything after the deductible. Dropped policy? You need a lawyer.

keep thinking that and I hope for your sake you don't get a serious illness.

And I hope you don't get your cadillac insurance plan (that you earlier claimed was $60/month, laughable) through your employer, cause if you get cancer and miss serious time at work they will fire you and you'll lose your insurance. Then you'll be jobless and without insurance, but you'll still have cancer.

@ Grover.....I know it is hard for you dependent type to understand, but I decided long ago to go it independently. I negotiate my own employment contracts instead of sitting around whining about being underpaid, overworked and not having insurance if I get fired. I bet you didn't even know you have that option, did you? Don't worry. Obama will take care of your sorry arse and no doubt will come after me to write you a check.

I know it is hard for you dependent type to understand...

as I posted elsewhere, I do quite fine financially (there is a strong statistical probability that I even do better than you, but I don't know your personal financials nor do I care to compare them).

Thanks for the concern though, and the strawman argument.

JobSeeker - So let's say you have a sudden, major health issue and you go to the ER. You've done your research, of course, because you're responsible so you know that the hospital is in your insurance network. You're treated in the ER, given a bunch of lab tests, and immediately admitted into the hospital because you need emergency surgery.

Fast Forward -- It's weeks later and, thankfully, you're recovering at home. You begin to get your bills. Turns out, even though your hospital is in network, the physicians who treated you in the ER are not (this is very common). The hospital also has a policy of farming out lab work to an out-of-network independent laboratory. And the surgeon you needed on such short notice? Also not in your network. Sure, your insurance pays 60% for out-of-network services, but did you know that that doesn't mean 60% of what the hospital bills? It means 60% of what the insurance company considers "reasonable and customary". You owe the remainder. The bills may be for $100,000, but your insurance company thinks $5,000 is reasonable so they pay $3,000. You're on the hook for the remaining $97,000. And that doesn't even include your deductible or the 20% you owe for the services billed in-network after your insurance pays 80%. This could end up being thousands and thousands of dollars out of your pocket.

Still think you're as responsible as before?

The main reason behind the great recession and most of our problems today....

no, the main reason behind the great recession was collateralized debt obligations (stamped AAA by S&P and Moody's) and highly leveraged derivatives (think AIG).

DrowningGrover is correct.

Yes, he finally is correct because of the reason of the recession. The other things, not so much.

But potable is also correct, it's in how people were raised. Most people who were raised in (what's called) the old fashion way take charge of their lives. And the old fashion way also believed in sparing the rod, spoil the child, plus austerity, saving, going without things you don't really need.

And NOT keeping up with the Jones, (another old saying). If your neighbor buys a new car, then you also must? Really, and yes, I have seen that happen. But again, it's PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Nothing less.

Not according to the current administration.

Plenty of jobs people just need to get an education. And when I say education not a art or liberal arts degree. I am talking STEM. Another good field is medical. Plenty of jobs in the medical area.

You must never go on vacation. I have never seen a hotel or airline that lets you book a hotel without a credit card of some type. Does a debit card work for hotel?

Dear Bid Dawg. I think it's a little more complicated than that. You may be partially right, but far from addressing much of the issue.

Median household income is $51,000, which is the relevant stat. People are using $25K (maybe for an individual), which is misleading. You pay for essentials as a household.

I own up to this number being incorrect above. I did lazy math (e.g., $51k household income divided by 2 individuals) to get an individual number even though I know the individual # is higher than $25k (mostly because some households have only one wage earner, thus their individual number is also $51k) because I didn't want to get into a math/statistics debate and rather wanted to focus on stagnating middle class wages, higher than advertised inflation (because substitution is included in the inflation number), and a growing number of poor simply because the economy is squeezing them out.

But i'll admit my "fuzzy math" here since you called me on it, and you are correct. But I'm not trying to lie, just focus on the bigger picture.

Just so you know CNN did a much better job covering this survey. Did you know that of the people that made and less 75K only 30% had more savings than card debt and if you go to 30K and less that number jumped to 59%. this also reported that 38% of people are saving less last year than they year before.

Arrogant prick.

I'm a conservative, and I pay 12 to 15% in fed taxes annually.

It's tough. On $50K a year, so damn much is taken out (including for retirement and my health/dental insurance), I still have to use my credit cards to pay for 1-2 bills at end of month! This with a student loan repayment...

@MS.....A prerequisite to Home Finance should be Algebra I. After all, you cannot calculate how much you need to set aside for credit card or loan payments each month without algebra. California is leading the way to get rid of algebra in middle school.

http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_22599953/bob-huff-elimination-algebra-requirement-wrong-direction-california

@ JobSeeker

Actually calculating how much one needs for credit card or loan payments is easy. What you charge you pay IN FULL when the statement comes. With self discipline it works quite well, and very easy to calculate the payment. And a home mortgage is pretty well set for the life of the loan.

@ Cowboy.....If you have a credit debt of $25,000 and you want to pay it off in 3 years, what is the monthly payment if the APR is 18%? The formula to calculate it is a basic algebraic equation, something the California education system is abandoning for middle schoolers.