Or...

We could allow student loans in bankruptcy. Big corporations are allowed to offload millions upon millions of dollars through chapter 11. But the average citizen cannot discharge a few thousand dollars (of student loan debt) through chapter 7, I thought the purpose of bankruptcy was to give someone whom has made mistakes a fresh start?

The sooner we write laws that actually help ordinary people instead of cater to major corporations, the better off we will all be.

No, allowing student loans to be discharged in bankruptsy is not a solution. Someone will be left holding the bag - it will be you and me. The bottom line: do not co-sign loans for you kids, just as jsmithzzzzz said - it's never a good idea. PArents have no obligation to insure costs of higher education for their offspring. If the kiddies want to go on to school then they can figure out a way to make it happen - work, miitary service, internships, starting out at a community college while living at home - any and all of these options can help mitigate the costs.

I have a couple of friends, in their 60s, who owe student loans.

Good point. General Motors and American Airlines can go bankrupt, but average student can't. Unfair.

As for co-signing, don't do it. How about the school go-signing. That will force them to actually make sure students are educated for the job market.

Gumps....

So this must mean you don't support chapter 11...we pick up the tab for that you realize

I don't believe it. I had a tiny student loan once, paid it off and forgot all about it.

Next thing I knew Student Aid made one false claim after another, saying I had gone to some 3 different schools, which was a total lie.

What I learned was that Student Loan KEPT my promissory note instead of returning it to me or destroying. Then they wait a few years until the statute of limitations is up where you're no longer required to keep your records, and then hit you repeatedly for money they are NOT entitled to.

There's a reason why student loans can't be discharged through bankruptcy, because a few decades ago, recently graduated lawyers and physicians were filing bankruptcy, and discharging thousands of dollars, and then turning around and a few years later, making a mint. Some students spent years in school studying alcohol, pot and sex and then dropped out and filed when their parents threatened to disown them. Some people majored in dinosaurs and couldn't find any use for their degrees. Some people went to school just to avoid the draft, and took out loans to stay out of Viet Nam. They filed for bankruptcy.

There was an outcry, reports on 60 Minutes and in news magazines, and Congress went to work. And there you have it.

Sometimes life just happens to throw a nasty curve ball, and someone who worked hard to get an education finds themselves living in a world where their once valuable degree has been outsourced by the 1%. Funny how they are still able to discharge their obscene debts while the former student has no such option.

When is that comet coming to give us sweet sweet relief?

Kornfed...laughing my ass off. thank you. and yes! when will it come?

When is that comet coming to give us sweet sweet relief?

No joke...

Jeeze, reading the news is so damn depressing/irritating.

If seniors still owe on their college debt, then a college education must not have brought in the dollars to repay those loans. Having worked as an adjunct in several 2-year colleges, including proprietary, I can say that financial aid "counselors" need more oversight. Students are yanked in the office, told to sign documents and have little understanding of how that system works or what all that fine print actually means. Like most other financial things in this country, it's turned into a rip-off and created a college-educated workforce for Target.

Clearly, a senior's social security check should be protected from garnishment. If the debt hasn't been collected by the time someone has one foot in the grave, it should be charged off.

Of course, if we weren't subsidizing the 1% with tax cuts and subsidies, perhaps the govt wouldn't be so broke that it has to go into nursing homes and still struggling communities to get the money from people who've suffered enough.

new feudalism; in debt for life; what next debtors prisons, cut of their social security and Medicare, seize their pensions; the student loan fiasco, has been a boon for the banks, Federal guarantee 85%, no liability , cannot bankrupt, in debt for the rest of your life to the company store.

The biggest problem with student loans are the kids who go $100,000 in debt to get a degree in art history or some other equally useless field when it comes to getting a job. Maybe the solution is to only give student loans to students who are actually pursuing a meaningful degree that has a career path associated with it. Stop loaning money for people to go get useless degrees whose only purpose is to help the university suck as much money as possible out of the fool before dumping them on the street with a worthless degree, huge debts, and no way to make a decent living. Banks should do a risk analysis like they do with every other type of loan. Look at the amount the student is going to need to borrow to get the degree and the salary data for people with those types of degrees in order to see if the student is going to have any hope of paying back the loan after graduation. It makes no sense to loan a student $100,000 to get a degree where the average mid-career salary for people with the degree is only $40,000 a year and the starting salaries are around $25,000. They will never be able to payback the loan on time, if at all.

Kornfed....December 21, 2012 the earth folds and you'll be all set. Just like the movie!

JS in SD:

The biggest problem with student loans are the kids who go $100,000 in debt to get a degree in art history or some other equally useless field when it comes to getting a job. Maybe the solution is to only give student loans to students who are actually pursuing a meaningful degree that has a career path associated with it.

HEY! Don't be messing with the people that serve me my coffee in the morning...

One thing to keep in mind, though, is that there are plenty of undergrads who think they are going to be matriculating to med school or some other such career track, eventually they pull out about $100k in student loans because they can't make anything better than D's and have to continually retake classes.

But their mommy told them they could be physicists, MDs, astronauts, engineers, etc, so they think they can make it eventually.

I think the real issue has to do with consumerism and how it has bled over into our higher education system. Sure, universities are very much to blame, especially the lack of oversight for the degree mills, but so are parents and kids with this notion that they should get a degree no matter what because they believe that stupid piece of parchment is always a Golden Ticket. Unless you are making above a 3.5 in a degree that matters (math, science, a small handful of other majors), your degree will be toilet paper.

What this country really needs is for kids to be pushed towards our technical schools. That is how I think we can get America back on track.

I find this article interesting as well when talking about this subject matter. It was ran by MSNBC back in 07 and I'll bet it's truer now than it was back then.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17349066/ns/health-mental_health/t/college-students-think-theyre-so-special/

I think that student loan interest should be able to be discharged in bankruptcy. I'd bet that student loan interest is one of the big reasons seniors still have student loan debt. One thing people do not realize about student loan debt, is that civil and criminal law does not apply to student loans! Student loans have a seperate set of law under Education Law. We can thank Salliemae, via CEO Albert Lord, for this.

There are so many dirty little secrets about student loans. For example, if a person defaults on their loans, then 25% of the balance is automatically added to the backside of the loan, not to mention late fees of $600 a month. Also they have Administrative Wage Garnishment which means they CAN take your Social Security, SSI-SSDI, or any other money you get. Student Loan Law does not need to leave you $700 a month to live on like most people think. There is no such thing as being judgement proof against Student Loans!

Many people that went to college in the 1980's were locked in to 12%-18% interest rates on student loans. You can buy a $200,000-$300,000 house and pay it off way easier than you could ever pay off $60,000 in student loan debt.

About the only way to handle large student loan debt is to get into the William D. Ford repayment program. And that is not even a solution to pay it off. It is just a way for them to milk you out of money for 25 years.

Let me give it to you straight; You do not need college anymore. Do it yourself over the internet. There is a big push for what they call DIY-U (do it yourself university) for one thing, use MIT OpenCourseWare to take free classes. It's a new economy and college will not help you like it did in previous decades. So my opinion is, DO NOT to take out student loans.

Lesson Learned also, Do NOT borrow money from (loan sharks) the government.

Got some extra cash years ago and paid 20k off, didn't bat an eye and I'm glad its gone!

Would have rather had a new boat or truck, but those MF's would figure out a way of keeping my SS. or screwing me the rest of my life. Good Riddence.

I worked my azz off putting myself through college. I worked on and off campus and took classes weekdays and weekends.

I didn't want to get involved with a debt I couldn't afford like people do today.

Due to my burn injuries and surgeries, I ended up just graduating with an AA degree, and I am happy with that.

I had way too much on my plate with my injuries, working, school, and surgery, but I managed very well in accomplishing my goal. I would have liked to have gone further, but it was possible. Surgeries became a priority for me and I had to start getting some of these uncomfortable scarbands removed yearly.

I also know a lot of people from college that got their BA and PhD's and still can't find a job. They are usually too qualified, or as one of my friends thinks he should be paid top dollar when starting a new job at a new company.

The way I see it. If the republicans can hand out billions to the rich, then why not expunge and get rid of these debts of these people. They won't do it because it;s a trap to keep the people (students) from getting ahead in life.

Don't take out student loans. Take one class at a time, or go to a trade school and learn a trade.

Just because you have gone to college, it does not guarantee you a job or career.

I am around college students a lot. Most do have college loans. I ask graduates all the time how their job search is going. Most cannot find jobs in the field they want. They have taken jobs though and so they are counted as working. However their jobs are intern jobs, or summer temporary jobs, or jobs in the hospitality sector so they can pay their bills. I actually only know 1 grad out of probably hundreds I know that got a good paying job. She has a science major, but also job experience. Everybody else is either just getting by, or have gone on to graduate work, or are employed outside their field in a low paying position. It really isn't pretty out there.

Why do conservatives think it is OK for corporations to declare bankruptcy, but that people should not be able to? They say don't borrow the money if you can not repay it; why is the same logic not right for corporations, who socialize the costs but privatize the profits? People made an investment in their education, only to find no jobs because Republicans cut taxes and deregulated until they trashed the economy.

This is not about freedom; it is about consistency. If bankruptcy is good enough for Mitt's investments, while he loots the pension fund, it should be good enough for people that actually work for a living.

The whole system is corrupt.

@American Socialist

Or...

We could allow student loans in bankruptcy. Big corporations are allowed to offload millions upon millions of dollars through chapter 11. But the average citizen cannot discharge a few thousand dollars

Let me see if I follow your logic, since one group can get a way with F'ing the rest of us over another group should be allowed to also. Yeah, that makes sense.

That is an interesting observation. If people cannot file for Chapter 11 then corporations should not be able to either right? After all Corporations are people and must be held to the same laws as people.

If corporations can then people should be able to as well for the same reason. Cool let's turn the Supreme Court ruling against the bastards, someone file for Chap 11 and cite the SCOTUS ruling as your precedent. If it goes through everyone do it. /s

No I know that would cause another collapse but if one person, or maybe three, do maybe the Supreme Court will rescind their Corps. are people and have free speech argument and we can go back to fair and clean elections, except for the billions of gallons of mud being slung by Romney.

Steve-2352647

Why do conservatives think it is OK for corporations to declare bankruptcy, but that people should not be able to?

Huh? What the hell are you talking about? "People" file for bankruptcy all the time. Aside from that some of you really need to get a clue about the things you bitch about. Businesses are allowed to file for bankruptcy as a way to protect the LENDER not so some greedy fat cat can avoid paying his bills.

People made an investment in their education, only to find no jobs because Republicans cut taxes and deregulated until they trashed the economy.

Didn't you mean to say "Polly want a cracker"? Bush Jr added more new regulation in his first 3 years than Obama did. And please do explain how cutting taxes leads to fewer jobs? Any clue? Didn't think so. 57 BILLION dollars worth (that's per year) of new regulations added over the past 11 years has done FAR more damage to the economy than any deregulation ever has. Where the hell do you think that money comes from? People really need to pull off the blinders and quit lapping up the BS the politicians are dumping in their troughs.

How about making an education so one does not have to hock his soul to get one. How many individuals are left in the wake because they are intelligent enough to go to college but do not have the funds to do so. These same colleges have executives and coaches that make mega bucks while the nation gets dumber. So dumb we elect a person with a c average to the presidency who had no business even in college. We are only hurting ourselves while other countries pass us by.

To all the people that don't think that school loans should be allowed to be discharged under bankruptcy. Please tell me how it's fair that a private bank that made a private loan is awarded special privileges under the bankruptcy laws when no other private creditor is granted these privileges?

The problems with the system: While obtaining my degree my tuition doubled from when I started. Student loan interest rates jumped to over 9% with the "fees." You can't obtain a professional degree without loans or rich parents. The old thing of there are 100's of scholarships available that will pay for everything is a myth, most only give a few $100/year. Some (after the massive hoops) give you a whopping $50 because the majority advertised are scams or corporate tax write-offs that never get paid out in any significant amount. I did receive yearly academic scholarships and they helped but not a lot compared to tuition. When 1/2 way through I could have dropped out and had $50K worth of debt for nothing but didn't. I didn't live fancy while in school with loans and still don't (most students I know don't, contrary to what some believe). I don't even own a flat screen tv or smart phone. The university system makes sure you can't transfer out in the middle so no competition for your business once you are in the gov and universities can raise fees, tuition, and interest rates at will. No free market there! They fee you to death so $150/credit hour means $500 plus w/parking, books, student services, health, etc etc etc.

So I well know the difficulties faced by students and yes something needs to be done to fix the system. The country benefits by having an educated populace, especially in the sciences. It's an investment in the future that has spillover benefits, but we're a society that wants immediate rewards and could care less about the future. Why do you think China is on the rise? They and OUR US tax dollars invested in them getting science degrees in the US 20yrs ago. Yet we won't invest in smart students doing so now. The lotteries in many states we're supposed to fund education but the monies have been stolen for other things. So yes, there is a major problem with the US education system. The only bright spot is that if I die uncle sam will be stuck with my loans.

As far as corps filing bankruptcy, I've been in invested in companies doing that as well. The laws are designed to first screw the material suppliers and nonpreferred shareholders (usually us and our retirement funds), then assets are sold and if not enough can be recovered the preferred shareholders and bond holders lose, and finally the banks. So corps borrow billions of our dollars (eg Worldcom, Enron, etc) and then file bankruptcy after stealing our money. If it's not allowed for one group then it should not be allowed for all groups!

Simple solution the government should seize their tax returns until the debt is paid or garnish their social security.

They already do that.

To put this in a perspective that many here can grasp!

How would you like it if after buying a house and being half way through making the payments they came back and raised your interest rate to 3X what it was when you started and doubled or tripled the cost of the house? That's in effect what is happening in the college education system.

You can't "lock in" anything because interest rates are set by the government, even private education loan rates, unless you want a "personal loan," which is at credit card rates. Even if you save your money with rising costs you will run out 1/2 way through and doctoral programs don't allow you to take 10yrs off in between. The alternative to loans is to not to pursue any advanced/doctoral degree unless you save for 30yrs to do it. That would make college only for the wealthy.

Most students I know pay back their loans and are not saying they shouldn't, but legally being able to change costs and interest rates in the middle of a degree, knowing students have little choice but continue is by any stretch of the imagination WRONG!

Soon only the wealthy will be able to afford to become doctors, scientists, engineers, etc and then we can become the low cost labor solution for China, India, and every other country investing in their future. On the plus side labor jobs will move back to the US, just paying $20/week.

let's ask our "president" and the Senate about borrowing, printing, stealing and spending money like drunken sailors on leave after 10 years at sea.

The vast majority of this debt is parents carrying debt for the "we're not responsible" 99%'er generation. What is the point of this article, exactly? Don't help your kids get loans?

I think if you raise children who are too lazy or evil to repay your kindness, you got yourself into it. Pay your way out. Get rid of Obama, and the economy will improve. Dump the Democrats in the Senate, and the economy will improve greatly.

Seems that you are all missing something here.....If people can have gotten to retirement age and still owe student loans, then everything that we have been told about student loan repayment is a lie.....Like the government can take your tax returns against the value of student loans owed. Do you mean to tell me that for 30-40 years after graduation, these people never saw a federal tax return????? I am going to imagine that a goodly percentage of them own or did own homes during their working life, and how did they manage to qualify for mortgages with defaulted student loans????? Really burns my but, because I am rapidly approaching that age, but paid off my student loans years and years ago, and worked menial jobs (the ones that no American supposedly is willing to do) to do it......I ate Mac and Cheese, lived in an efficiency apartment, drove a car that was ancient, and sat on furniture that was a collection of stuff from people's attics and basements and some dumpster diving.....No, I don't feel sorry for any of them and no I don't want them to be able to walk away from their debts....and yes, my kids have student loans to deal with, and they will pay them, because that is what you do when somebody loans you money. You honor the trust and pay it back. If we all had a greater sense of personal responsibility as individuals, maybe that would translate into more accountability in the ranks of business leaders. I am sick to death of everyone looking for an angle and justifying inappropriate behaviors because somebody else did it and perhaps seems to have gotten away with it. John Wayne Gacy killed over 25 young men, got away with it for a long time without detection......does that mean that all of us can take the lives of over two dozen people, before the rules kick in????

Don't borrow money if you don't want to pay it back !

If I take out a loan, I pay it back. Too many people take advantage of the system by taking out loans with the intention of not ever paying the loan off.

It appears that this has been the case for many Americans in reguards to student loans. Maybe the government should shut down this program.

The US Government would have given it all to Pakistan or Afghanistan anyway.

@Sue-3329001

Seems that you are all missing something here.....If people can have gotten to retirement age and still owe student loans,...Do you mean to tell me that for 30-40 years after graduation, these people never saw a federal tax return?????

Sue clearly you are the one missing something. It's usually a good idea to actually read the article BEFORE you commant on it, it was onlt 4 short paragraphs after all. It clearly states that these debts are caused by people going BACK to school "later in life" or by co-signing for a loan their children take out.

I don't know what student loans most of you are talking about. We helped our kids pay for college, we took out Parent Plus Loans for the vast majority of the cost, the kids took out whatever they were offered on the Stafford and Perkins loans. Once both kids had graduated we consolidated the loans totally about 150,000.00, locking in a 4% rate and paid the suckers off as quickly as we could. We had the kids consolidate their loans as well, four years worth into one loan, rate lock in fixed.

My debt is (was) my debt, I take out a loan I am going to pay it off if I have to sell everything I own. College has paid off for both of my kids, both are earning good wages, though one had to start at the bottom working at a job that didn't offer much more then health benefits and minimum wage and work his way up changing jobs four times about six years. Just because you have a degree doesn't mean you deserve the top rated salary, it just means you might be able to advance higher than those not as well prepared.

jsmithzzz you don't know what you're talking about as far as co-signing for a loan. Your kid CAN'T go to college and get a loan without your name on everything unless you pay the whole thing in cash in advance. If you'd ever filled out a FAFSA form you would know that. I hate when people spout crap off when they don't know what they are talking about.

MN:

Once both kids had graduated we consolidated the loans totally about 150,000.00,

Whaaaat?

What the heck were your kids studying and where? My bachelors degree only cost me about $30K in loans and I went to a nice state university (not Ivy League...but still, jeeze...).

Then again, I worked and overloaded my semesters so I could graduate in 3 years.

I went to school for 7 years to get my masters in engineering; I racked up about $57k in loans, and my parents aren't on the hook for any of it - I am the only one responsible for paying it back. Not even my husband would be responsible for paying it off if I died...unless I leave an estate.

There actually is one way to discharge student loan debt. You have to be able to prove extreme hardship, and they could be forgiven. I looked into this because I have a condition that will in all likelihood disable me at some point, leaving me unable to work and I wanted to find out if there was some way to relieve me of the debt if that happens.

There actually is one way to discharge student loan debt. You have to be able to prove extreme hardship

The irony being that hiring a lawyer and setting up an effective case to this strategy proves you have the means to pay... Catch 22

csmith-2139891 wrote "To all the people that don't think that school loans should be allowed to be discharged under bankruptcy. "

Student loans don't require the student or co-signer to post collateral. Where else can you get an unsecured loan for $30k-100K? If the loans could be discharged, every student would declare bankruptcy after collecting their degree. Banks would not offer the loans, and tuition rates would drop to adjust to the fewer dollars available.

Seniors who co-signed for student loans should take it out on the student's hide, or cut off their inheritance or whatever.

One of my teachers got his doctorate, and went ahead and paid student loans for 15 years. He also traveled around the world in his field, and did well in his work. It was like paying a utility bill or union dues, and the interest rate was very low.

Seniors who co-signed for student loans should take it out on the student's hide, or cut off their inheritance or whatever.

I agree. My parents co-signed 2 student loans for me - I WILL be paying the loans back when I graduate in a couple of years. They won't be co-signing for any during my third and fourth years. I didn't need any student loans for undergrad; but, have entirely lived off them during medical school. It is MY responsibility to pay back these student loans - not my parents and certainly NOT taxpayers responsibility. I'm very grateful for what my parents have done, and part of showing my gratitude is to be sure the loans get paid off in a timely matter and never late.

I can agree with you in part, but the educational institutions advertising about the increased salary expectations just because you sat through a degree program is perhaps false advertising and encouraging people to foolishly spend on questionable training and education. Parents are forced into the roles of underwriting outrageous college expenses, because we have materially changed the legal definitions of dependency in our society. The government holds the income of the parents against children in consideration for financial assistance until the child is 24 years old. They are considered legal adults at 18, able to vote and come and go at will. A parent cannot have access to their legal records, banking records, medical records after this point, but according to the government, we are responsible for them until 24......Sooooo, a parent who has been successful is made to underwrite an adult child, keeping the student dependent and insuring that the only sort of loans qualified for are those co-signed by parents.....

I WILL be paying the loans back when I graduate in a couple of years.

Yeah good luck with that... If you can even find a job you will be very fortunate if it can even pay for both housing AND food, much less extra throwaway money like loan payments.

"Studying to be a basket weaver, a woman, a homsexual, a african are not careers."

Hilarious but true.

Loans shouldn't be made to students pursuing useless degrees.

Common Man, sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder from getting your GED, by the enlightened comment you shared.

it's not what you know, it is who you know !!!!

Isn't that the truth. The cronyism is in all facets of society.

NO... student loans should be either super low interest like 2 or 3% or INTEREST FREE. No one should have to commit to a lifetime of debt to educate themselves to further their prospects in life.

Beware_the:

I believe the whole process of student loans is based upon the inexperience of 17 - 20 yr olds just leaving High School with no real life experiences. I also believe its a complete and total setup by not only our government, but also by the load shark finanacial systems in place to take advantage of the young and inexperienced. I also find it completely unacceptable that most countries have an educational system that takes them 8 years total vs our 12 just to be able to enroll in college. I also find it completly unacceptable that the USA would rather make money off these kids rather than exploit the knowledege that these same kids could offer to make this country whole again. But thats not going to happen. This country is ruled by debt, without it, it would fall!

@Common Man-3493893

I think they need to tighten up on student loans.

Never happen. They threw that concept out the window with the Higher Education Act of 1965. Let's make sure the guy flipping burgers at McDonalds has a college degree by making it easy for him to get a loan. It's no coincidence that since 1965 the cost of a college education has risen at three times the rate of inflation. Give anyone a source of easy money and they'll find a way to spend it and work the system to get every penny they can. Why not offer worthless degrees if people are stupid enough to pay for them? How else would college campuses be able to rival country clubs?

Just another example of what happens when the government decides to "help" us.

Er, no.
Tnat's just putting the blame on the students who choose to go to school. The crux of the problem is that colleges have no incentive to keep costs down, as long a financial institutions are around providing loans to students and their families. Just like the real estate boom and banks, everyone is making out like a bandit except the borrowers. So keep the blame where it should be - on the colleges who have made little attempt to cut costs. Instead, when there is a shortfall, they just hike the fees
I'm always amused at the people who think they know what a "worthwhile" degree is. I know two people in the art history field, and they are both employed. I've been fully employed for three decades and have a background in the arts. The people who teach in schools, create the interiors of your buildings, design the packaging of the products you buy, write the scripts for the movies you watch, all have backgrounds in the arts. It's the high coat of tuition that has caused this indebtedness, not the students.

FYI: Those fancy products like the iPad and iPhone made by Apple were influenced by people with art degrees.

Who is to determine what is a "meaningful career"? This sounds like indoctrination rather than education. If we went badk to the simple notion that academic diligence and performance determine future success in academic pursuits, we might actually get to a point where other career training and options are considered by students. I actually know some very successful business people who elected to pursue trades and apprenticeships to learn a skill....They are financially successful and often financially independent, owning their own businesses and employing and training others...we don't really encourage that route to education any longer.

Actually this is not entirely true.

If you can show that your career will never, ever pay back the loans, a judge may adjust them.

However, it is very hard to do, and you cannot ask for loan forgiveness based on your _personal decision— to take on a low-paying job, such as working for a charity, when your career qualifies you for higher pay.

Don't borrow the money. And if you want to protest, protest the Dean's office, not Wall Street.

America's Universities are giving crummy, overpriced educations. And yet, when the Janitor's union at the school goes on strike for yet more pay, who do the students back?

Yea, the unions.

Oh, well, a fool and his money, soon parted.

Without unions the pay in this country would be even more abysmal. Student loans cannot be declared in bankruptcy because its pretty non-existent and no corporate bribed judge will see otherwise. Unless you are disabled they are with you forever.

The educations are not crappy IMO its the capitalistic system of corruption more so. The productivity of the working populace getting stolen by the capitalist criminals. Hence the productivity is never higher while the average US pay is the same as 1980. That ol trickle down right wing BS again.

Ahhh fascism for everyone.

Student loans should be added to bankruptcy.

mangokoolaid - you are dead wrong. No one is entitled to a free college education on the taxpayer's dime. If you can't repay the loan, then don't sign the papers. It's as simple as that. People who don't have kids have already subsidized your public school education through their taxes. They don't deserve to have even more of their tax dollars spent on providing you with a higher education. There are ways to get an education without breaking the bank. For example, go to community college for the first two years. If you expect to buy a car or house, then you can repay your student loans.

Mr. Toker (aptly named), I worked in a UAW plant. I was also a Teamster.

If you ask nice, I'll tell you where we buried Jimmy Hoffa.

What you don't know about Unions, is, well, a heck of a lot.

Unions pretty much suck, and if you don't believe me, read Micheal Moore's "Dude, Where's My Country?" - where he states, flatly, that only one or two of the unions in the USA are worth a rat's arse.

Yea, THAT Michael Moore.

I don't agree with him about much, but he was realistic about that.

@RobertPlattBell

Mr. Toker (aptly named),...

What you don't know about Unions, is, well, a heck of a lot.

Unions are clearly only the tip of the iceberg for him in that regard.

Education has become crappy....SAT and ACT scores are down from 20 years ago, and that is even among the brightest students. The tests have been adjusted for culture bias (meaning made easier) and the scores are still lower. Students may take the test multiple times and take the best of the scores where in the past, you got one and only one shot at the test. If a retake was grated the scores of the original test and the retake were averaged. Colleges and Universities have to have remedial classes to get incoming students up to basic level functioning in Math, Writing, English skills....and that is ridiculous-none of it belongs in higher education. Just like the mortgage crisis was predicated that it was somehow prejudicial to suggest that somebody wasn't ready to own a home and take on that financial responsibility, we also say that it is prejudicial to say that somebody is not yet ready for the responsibility of higher education.....The flawed theory is that if we throw enough money at either of these problems, they will be solved.

Then don't have them....duh!

Cuncial,

You were a child at some point. Are you a parasite? I am paying for my children's education. They know if they mess up, they are on their own. This allows them to concentrate on school and being in college without the worry of how to pay for it...

Student loans survive bankruptcy because Albert Lord and his friends paid President bush and the republican controlled house and senate for their very own law called "The Bankruptcy Abuse and Prevention Act" From then on Sallie Mae has been taking America to the cleaners with ridiculous "balloon" style student loans that magically jump to %16 after you graduate, and theirs nothing you can do about it.

Sallie Mae practically wrote the law...

You state...

"Sorry, but people make really "poor" choices, in both senses of the word, and then expect everyone else to bail them out."

You DO realize the American people pick up the tab every time one of these rich ass "venture capitalists" start a company, pay themselves giant salaries, then file chapter 11....right???

"American Socialist" you obviously don't understand bankruptcy law; by statue or philosophy. I'm not going to waste too much time on you, but to say you should read more history.

As for CO-SIGNING LOANS - never, ever do this, period. Federally guaranteed student loans do not require co-signers. However, odious "private loans" pushed by odious "for profit" universities, do.

Federally guaranteed loans SOMETIMES need co-signers. My graduate plus loan required a co-signer for the first two years of medical school. Of course, my credit was demolished by my ex-husband, which is why I required a co-signer for these loans. They also comprise the smallest part of my student loan debt. I'm also not taking them for my third and fourth year of medical school. I've been able to work out other arrangements that make the loans not necessary.

That said, I agree with you when you say parents (or whomever) should ALWAYS question why a co-signer is needed. Parents shouldn't automatically agree to co-sign. My parents never co-signed for anything in undergrad (well, to be honest, everything was paid for by scholarships and grants in undergrad), and they only agreed to co-sign for my graduate plus loans because they know I'm going into a field that will absolutely has positions and that pays well enough that I can pay it off. It is my responsibility to pay this - not theirs.

Hate to break it to you, but student loans have been the way they have been since before President Bush took office.

But you weren't born then, I guess.

Nice fantasy, but the reality is (or was) that too many smart folks were taking advantage of the old bankruptcy laws, running up debts and then walking away from them.

Since they were guaranteed by the government, the taxpayers ended up with the tab.

I PAID BACK MY STUDENT LOANS. It was not hard to do - even close to $40,000 worth.

I saw an "OWS" protester with a sign saying he had $25,000 in student loans, like that was a large amount of money to pay back over 30 years.

Heck, a reasonably optioned Camry costs that much.

It may seem like a lot of money to a 22-year-old OWS protester, but by the time you are 30, you might not think so.

If you borrow money, you have to pay it back.

Don't want to pay back? DON'T BORROW.

Seems pretty simple, no?

Are you dense ? $25,000 paid back at say 8% over 30 yrs amounts to about $100,000 k by the time you pay it all back. It's NOTHING like buying a car. FOOL. It's like having a MORTGAGE. You pay QUADRUPLE what you borrowed in the end.

So you pay it off early. We managed to pay off $30,000 in less than six years because we kept our old cars, didn't add any other debt and lived comfortably but frugally. Among other things, we ate at home instead of eating out all the time. BTW, not eating out included avoiding McDonalds, where at the time two could eat for about $8 or less. Today, a meal for the two of us cost almost $14 AND they charge $.75 for water. (McDonalds is off my list again.) I can make a similar meal at home for about $3 for two people.

THINK, people. Why pay it off over 30 years if, with some minor and temporary adjustments, you can pay it off early, then go for the new car, nicer neighborhood and other goodies?

Kind of sounds like what Chrysler, GM, and tons of banks did they took a government bankruptcy bail out and walked away for free. Bet we spent billions more of our tax dollars bailing them out than students. I'm not for students filing bankruptcy on their loans but also against it for corporations!

I am against tuition and interest rates being raised yearly after you start your degree. My interest went for 2.8 to 6.8% with a 3% "fee." No choice but to continue. Few universities will these days allow more than 15 credits to transfer to another university and out of state hoses you with tuition. So they have you locked in until you finish. No free market capitalism in the current system but plenty of laws to protect the system from any losses.

What all of you people complaining about the Corporations being able to file for Chapter 11 fail to realize, if that corporation goes under, so do the people who are employed by them.

A vast majority of students only qualify for the Parent Plus loans under the new government formulas for financial aid......and the greatest majority of student loan money is private, the government having largely abdicated the student loan business because of the huge default rates....Only the neediest of students qualify for federal monies of any kind.

A vast majority of students only qualify for the Parent Plus loans under the new government formulas for financial aid......and the greatest majority of student loan money is private, the government having largely abdicated the student loan business because of the huge default rates....Only the neediest of students qualify for federal monies of any kind.

A grand I made, 10 cents I'm paid - no more, no more no more no more...

That's complete BS really. The financial problems come from the capital class exploiting the working class by attaining all of the gains for 40 years off the backs and work of the middle/lower class. Meanwhile getting socialism for the rich and brutal crony capitalism for everyone else.

The rampant criminality and corruption on Wall St, committing outright fraud and embezzlement. Financial institutions have had so much corporate deregulation that laws are easily routed around for short term criminals to abuse the system and leave with millions.

Corporations are the enemy of the state at this point.

So did I. I paid my loans off even with just entry level jobs until I could focus and become self sufficient and financially stable (many years). And if you do default, credit agencies report and damage ratings which in turn make living in a capitalist society very difficult.

I was awarded a grant (that I hadn't even applied for) in my senior year, after working part-time jobs for 3 years and having a state scholarship. Later on, I started on an executive MBA but had to quit for lack of funds. Many people encouraged me to take out loans in order to finish, but I wasn't making much and didn't want to go into debt. Eight years later, with another grant, I finished. The people who provided the grant money (anonymously) changed my life. I am forever grateful to them. If you really want the education, you will get it. Go part time, to a community college, or work. The journey was every bit as good as the destination.

Midnight Toker, are you stupid or stoned ? On one hand you sound almost sane and reasoned, then you go off the edge. "Corporations are the enemy of the state" ? Are you typing your dribble on a magical computer you carved out of a tree ? No, I don't think so...corporations make your pitiful, miserable, worthless life on the Internet possible. In real life I suppose you might have some minimal value, but here you are merely a terribly confused idiot. You argue against the very entity that makes the medium you're using possible.

I worked with a guy in a call center who worked nights, after working his day job. I still remember the hour he stood up, took off his head set and announced he'd made the money to pay off his student loans, and then he went to HR and resigned.

RTColorado Midnight Toker, are you stupid or stoned

It is fascinating to me that you start off your critique with an insulting rhetorical question about cognition and follow this statement with what appears to be a reading comprehension difficulty

Corporations are the enemy of the state" ?

Corporations denote private industry as opposed to public or government run (state institutions )

You appear to have some misinformation about the Internet also. It was originally developed by DARPA - the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency a government agency which is really what made it possible for midnight toker to be on it, Corporations I agree made it accessible to him ...I also realize that the generalization that corporation's are the enemy of the state is a gross over simplification of reality but you keep attacking folks I find it entertaining

I knew people in law school who bought brand-new BMWs with graduate school loans.

It was a running joke back then that a lot of students had wealthier lifestyles as students, than they did as young Associates.

Only then, did they wish they had spent less in college.

Go to any college town, what do you see ringing the campuses? Pizza joints.

I worked at three different ones, making money for school. I delivered pies to students who spend that student loan money on take-out pizza, which was fine with me, as I made money this way.

But I could never have afforded to do that - and even today do not. It is a horrible financial choice.

But college kids do a lot of this - drinking beer, frat parties, smoking pot, modding cars, buying trendy clothes at the mall - even getting pets.

Somewhere in there, they go to school. Party school of course. Majors in English, or Communications, or Anthropology, or Philosophy, or other junk degrees that never lead to a job - or graduate more in the field every year than there are total jobs in the field (Yea, you, Newhouse School!).

Choices, my friend, choices. Choose wisely. And if you don't, don't try to punish those of us who did.

@Midnight Toker 4+20

My life is great maybe you are projecting like most useless dirty @!$%#s? Probability points to yes. The medium invented by the defense department through tax dollars? @!$%#ing idiot.

If you believe the internet would not exsist today without the government getting invloved you have absolutly no business calling anyone else an idiot.

Voice of experience here...

Borrowed modestly in the early 1970's for two years of state University tuition, but got more interested in marriage. Repaid my loans, had a son, bought a house, all on an income of between $7.5 - $10 per hour for factory work. My wife completed her degree, with no loans, in anthropology. After graduation, she worked for the university as a key-punch operator and then as a custodian in a nuclear physics lab. Later she worked as on office manager for a national sportswear imprinter and then for a national restaurant newsletter publisher. By the mid-1980's, my factory job had been consolidated to another plant. With the support of my family, I went back to school in Industrial Engineering. Agter graduation, We relocated to my new job and my wife found work as an office manager for a pest control company. After seven years, that company had been "venture capitalized" to death three times and all jobs disappeared. We then relocated again for my new job to an area without opportunities for my wife. After much discussion, she went back to school, Divinity School. Tuition was not an issue, she had a full scholarship for that. But housing during the week (120 miles away), books, computers and printers and travel costs added up. slightly over two years and $35k later she had her MDiv and was accepted as an unpaid deacon. Six months after my job literally went south to Mexico, she got a paid position with the state of Indiana as a prison chaplain at not quite $30k per year. So at 61, I am virtually unemployable in our area, we have a mortgage, and student debt payments living on savings and my wife's salary.

Interestingly, every politician pushes for employment reeducation for displaced workers. To this I say BOLLOCKS. These politicians are like schills for these skills diploma mills, as long as the worker is paying. And local companies say they want welders, but don't say they want 1-3 certified pipe-fitting welders. The welding school grads are neither pipe-fitters or certified, but paid for their production welding certificates, which used to be on-the-job training in industry. Now, they must either enter apprenticeships or pay to earn more certificates. And once employed, pay to earn more certificates in 6-Sigma, Kaizen or green manufacturing to keep up with their employer. And all these certificates require $700-$3000 or more for class-work and added fees for board testing. All to replace a $13/hr job with a $10/hr or less job.

Special note to RobertPlattBell,

Please note that my wife had no trouble working with her Anthropology degree. It actually prepared her to work with a variety of people with different perspectives and ways of life. On the other hand, I've known some foremen, plant managers, and even company vice-presidents who had the social and management skills of a resident of the monkey house in a zoo. They could throw crap around, nothing they said made sense, and everyone else worked despite them; but they always grabbed the best banana. Maybe what you learn in school and life is more important than what you take. Afterall, Franklin, Jefferson, Edison, and Gates didn't even earn degrees.

If you got a crappy education, it's because you were a crappy student. You get the education for which you are willing to work.

Exactly how does one pay off a student loan when they were promised a lie? In other words people usually take out student loans based on a not a promise but a guarantee by loan offices owned by big banks that their college education will land them a high paying job that will easily allow them to pay off the debt, when in reality they usually dont land a high paying job and thus dont have the money to pay off the debt? If you have a problem with dishonesty look first to the big banks that use these pie in the sky lies to dupe people into becoming their debt slaves.

OR, you could read what your are signing, think about what it will take to pay back the loan, plus your other living costs and determine if the expected income from your future job will be sufficient to cover all of your expenses and service your debt. If you can't do that, then go get one of those wonderful union jobs that Toker keeps talking about so you don't have to think too hard, OR select a different educational path that presents more opportunity.

In other words people usually take out student loans based on a not a promise but a guarantee by loan offices owned by big banks...

Morlack - It's your responsibility to do your research rather than taking the word of loan officers or anyone else. If a person is so stupid as to sign on the dotted line before making a full inquiry, then it's no one's fault but his own if things don't go as planned. The problem is that you are just like so many others in this country. You expect someone else to do all the work for you.

Morlack - You were "promised"? Really? You thought you would just be handed a job? Grow up.

Exactly, the student loan system is just a scam to enrich corporations, nothing more.

American Girl - you already posted the same statements at the top of the page. No one wants to read it a second time.

BTW...NEWS FLASH...your bank has copies of all the checks you've written. If you no longer have your records, it is possible to get copies. As for Student Loan keeping your promissory note rather than returning it to you, it doesn't take a genius to know that it was your responsibility to track that down when you made your final payment. If you didn't bother to do so, then there is no one to blame except yourself, so stop complaining.

The ability of the student loan programs to "enrich corporations" was given to them by our government who decided that the default rate was too high for them to risk government money any longer...share the risk and share the wealth...

So, Morlack, do you really believe that big banks make their profits by unjustly robbing you of your money? How many banks came to you offering to give you a loan? None, you say? Then you obviously approached them to ask for a loan. Is that the definition of someone unjustly robbing you of your money? I think not. You approached the bank to ask for a loan. You received the loan, so if you were unjustly robbed it's only because you set yourself up. The banks didn't do it for you.

The problem with this system is that people are duped into taking on debt they cant afford, by being told that they are guaranteed to get a high paying job by the loan offices owned by big banks, and such a guarantee does not exist. Since the foundation of this system is based on a lie, the people who get student loans are not contractually obligated to pay back the loan.

The problem with this system is that people are duped into taking on debt they cant afford...

No one is duped into taking a debt they can't afford, Einstein. People go to the banks of their own free will to ask for a loan. The banks aren't guaranteeing them a high paying job. It's their own responsibility to verify what to expect from a degree in their chosen field. It doesn't take a genius to know that someone with an undergraduate degree in art history probably will not earn 100K per year.

karen Willoughby: Depends on what his field is. When I graduate, I will have $275,000 in student loan debt (none from undergrad) - but, it's for medical school and, yes, I will be able to pay it all back, including interest. There are some fields out there that the careers can support higher student loan debt.

$275k? My God!

Check out post #25 below.

Sure hope it pans out for you after medical school!

You'll owe $275K? My God. Don't know if doctors will earn big bucks working under Obamacare. Hope it pans out for you.

I will owe $275,000 after I graduate - which is actually less than what many medical students owe upon graduation. Many medical schools charge close to $50,000/year for tuition alone. Then you aren't allowed to work during school (and we don't have time to work anyway - what with being in class/lab 40+ hours a week, and then have to study for the first two years, and then 40 - 80 hours/week on rotations + studying during the second two years), so you need to finance your living expenses also. Also, many medical students have undergrad and/or masters degree student loan debt - which, I don't have.

btw - why did you tell me to check out post #25 - it doesn't apply to me or my post in any way. Yes, I know my payments will be high - that's to be expected. Before we received our student loans we were required to take financial aid entrance counseling - in this, it walked you though everything, including predicting how much the monthly payments will be. We also are required to take exit counseling on this same information when we graduate. I'm not sure if that's required at the undergraduate level since I didn't take student loans for undergrad.

The biggest student debt problem isn't the med students, its the for profit schools where someone gets into debt for 100K and then can only get a 30K per year job for their trouble.

Jonathan - I agree with you 100% on this. People need to be careful about not only what they opt to get their degree in, but where they chose to get that degree.

Summer;

Along with borrowing all that money I hope you're getting REAL experience outside the classroom, I mean with real patients and co-workers. Thirty years ago a good friend of mine helped put herself through college, she worked the night shift in a nursing home. She carried bedpans, gave baths, and changed diapers for minimum wage. Her co-workers were smokers who snuck out for breaks as much as possible, leaving her alone with the most difficult patients. When she got her hard earned degree, the first job was working on a blood mobile for just above minimum wage. After that she worked the graveyard shift in a medical lab for many years. I'm just saying that you most likely won't start at the top no matter how many college degrees you have. I hope the "rotations" you mention is actual off campus work with real patients. The real world is not the world of acadamia. Colleges will put you on a pedestal because they're getting boatloads of money. The real world will treat you the opposite because they have to PAY you their hard earned money. Just ask the politicians who USED to be doctors.

Along with borrowing all that money I hope you're getting REAL experience outside the classroom, I mean with real patients and co-workers

That's part of the requirements to even get into medical school anymore - and yes, we see both standardized and real patients beginning our first year.

I'm just saying that you most likely won't start at the top no matter how many college degrees you have

I realize this. However, once a physician is practicing - it's a matter of building their practice, depends on their specialty, etc. about how much we make then. The particular field I want to go into starts (after residency) with an average salary of just over $200,000/year. Just like with any field, with more experience and if you do a good job, there is potential to make more.

I'm just saying that you most likely won't start at the top no matter how many college degrees you have

That's the definition of rotations. We go from site to site (or even in the same site) for a period of time. During our time on rotations, we are "pimped" - this is when residents and attendings ask you all sorts of questions about mechanisms of actions of drugs, what the proper diagnosis and treatment plans are, etc., etc. We also do hands on learning with procedures, etc., etc.

It's actually very involved - and I could give you a lot of information on it. But, just to give you a brief look at it. The first two years are "pre-clinical education. Each of the two years are made of two semesters that are 20 - 21 weeks each (instead of the 15 week semesters in undergrad) and each semester is about 40+ credit hours (unlike the 12 credit hours considered full time in undergrad). Essentially, the pre-clinical education of medical school is more than an undergrad degree in terms of credit hours and amount of work you do. During the first two years, we have very limited exposure to real and standardized patients. The last two years of medical school are the rotations or "clinical education". During this time, we are working in clinics, hospitals, etc., etc., in various fields (some are required rotations, others are elective rotations). The second two years are spent seeing patients, being "pimped" by attendings and residents (this is basically them asking you questions until you don't know the answer and then making you feel stupid for not knowing the answer, then they ask you the next day to see if you found out the answer that you missed the day before - it's actually a good thing), learning how to actually do medicine (not just the book side of it). After the first two years is the Step 1 board exam, after the third year is the Step 2 board exam, and during the first year of residency is the Step 3 board exam - then after residency is the board certification exams in your particular specialty.

Summer: I have a daughter that is $250,000 in student debt. She is a doctor. She is a 'family practioner' in a very depressed area in a southern state. All of her patients are on welfare and medicaid (NOT medicare but medicaid). Need I tell you what her income is? Zilch. I also don't need to describe her ability to pay on her loans. They can garnish her wages but she doesn't have any wages to garnish. She hasn't taken a paycheck in two years. Lost her home. No such thing as claiming bankruptcy, especially for the loan's sake since bankruptcy is no relief. I love it when all these people are talking about "rich doctors"! Not all doctors fall into that category.

Diana, your daughter's situation highlights some of the problems being faced right now for family practice. It also illustrates one of the reasons why so many people aren't going into family practice. We do need to be able to make a living and pay off our student loans - and, unfortunately, that means, to a certain degree, less family practice physicians are being produced right now.

I'm not sure how long your daughter has been practicing - but, has she looked into some of the programs out there for family practice physicians in which part of the student loan debt is forgiven in exchange for working in a depressed area? There are federal programs out there that can help offset some the student loan expenses for those in family practice physicians that work in under served areas.

It also illustrates one of the reasons why so many people aren't going into family practice. We do need to be able to make a living and pay off our student loans

You sound like just the sort of semi-educated lemming they want, but starting wages for virtually every single college level job is down to 2000 levels, no company is giving raises or bonuses anymore, and you are going to be lucky to even afford the basics once you get done. I love that you think that everyone but you is irresponsible and that you will pay them no matter what, but the bald fact is that 90% of students simply don't make enough upon graduating for 5-10 years to even attempt a payment.

Why would anyone believe that a loan office would guarantee you a job, let alone a high paying one? If you are that dumb you shouldn't be hired!

You should pay back your loans ANYWAY like a big boy. For the sake of taxpayers like me who settled for a two year junior college degree because that's what I COULD AFFORD to pay for in cash (one class at a time). I paid for each college course from the income I earned from my full-time, average-paying job.

No income, no payments.. With a trillion dollars of debt this bubble is going to be the next one to pop and its about time, greed and trickle down have destroyed our economy and until this debt burden of housing and student debt is removed from the middle class there can be no recovery.

Leave your emotions at the door, this is simple math folks.

I know of a gal, mid sixty,owes somewhere near $200,00 in loans due to interest...

It shouldn't be all that difficult to repay a two hundred dollar loan.

Sorry, but the obvious is that you shouldn't have taken the loans if you did not expect to repay them. In addition, your debt should not be forgiven after 25 years. I'd bet that you have at least one flat panel TV, the latest computer, a cell phone with all the bells and whistles, at least one car that is less than five years old, etc. If you have any of these, you can afford to repay your loan.

Good for you, tuition costs double in 2010 compared to what it did in 2000, what decade did you go to school in?

Where is the fairness to the people whose tax dollar or bank accounts made her loans possible? She accepted the loans. She owes it to the small investor or taxpayer to repay the money loaned to her. Period.

What happened there? DId she not READ and UNDERSTAND before signing the student loan papers? And then she didn't do the math until AFTER she borrowed and spent other people's money in massive quantities? No, I guess not.

Well educated, but with NO COMMON SENSE.

ABCzyx and Karen Willoughby: It must be WONDERFUL up there on your pedestals! Keep in mind that many economic failures have happened in the past 12 years that hadn't happened since The Great Depression. The banks, in their power and wisdom caused most of it by encouraging people to take loans they couldn't afford to live in houses they shouldn't be in. Not because they were good guys and girls but because it was 'cost beneficial'. A good percentage of these people were newly graduated doctors and lawyers with large student loans. When the values of their home dropped below what they had borrowed due to the economic mess they were stretched badly. When the economy when into the sewer they were stretched even more. Then they lost their credit AND their jobs and the ability to pay what they had been paying. You, must not have lived on the same planet with the rest of us. Don't pat yourself on the back too hard. I am still paying on my home and my student loan and have never missed a beat. I did not take any loan with the idea that I would 'spend other people's money in massive quatities....' I DO have common sense but I had no control over the economy or the results. I pay my bills but I also see ( which obviously you can't) where there were situations that were beyond their control. Student loans then become 'the last on the list of loan failures'. Look around you and pay attention to reality. You obviously don't have any problems on your planet.

Keep in mind that many economic failures have happened in the past 12 years that hadn't happened since The Great Depression. The banks, in their power and wisdom caused most of it by encouraging people to take loans they couldn't afford to live in houses they shouldn't be in

And the simple fact is that for both houses and student loans, the debt is simply not payable on existing jobs and wages. They can stomp their feet and insist the payments still be made, but it is hard to wring $1000 payments from people who have no job.