A workplace by definition is a place is a place where work is done, and a form of living is earned.

When people turn this into anything other than work; it infringes on their rights especially if they are of a different faith or do not believe in religion at all.

Under the First Amendment, Americans enjoy two freedoms with respect to religion: the right to be free from a government-imposed religion, and a right to practice any religion.

While private employers are not bound by the Constitution's restrictions on government, they are subject to federal and state laws that ban religious discrimination in employment.

The First Amendment establishes certain boundaries in terms of government establishment of religion and the individual's right to free exercise of a chosen religion. In the private sector, the matter of religion is governed by state and federal civil rights laws. The primary statute in this area isTitle VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Title VII prohibits private employers from discriminating on several bases, including race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. Various state laws also prevent discrimination. The courts have recognized various forms of prohibited discrimination, including disparate treatment, disparate impact, and a hostile environment.

This though does not mean that people should shove their religions down other people's throats. It can be quite annoying to say the least.....

Practice your religion at home or at your place of worship, not work

I am a religious person, and I have had discreet and respectful conversations at work about various religious topics when the discussion happens to come up. However, I also know the importance of being discreet about it, simply because of the political repercussions and the potential for conflict.

In the initial story about the guy at NASA, I initially posted that he was not proselytizing at work, but if he was actively engaging people in these discussions and unwantedly handing out DVDs, then I was wrong - he was proselytizing. If he wants to do this on the street corner on his own time, he has every constitutional right. There is a time and place for everything, but while at work on the clock, it is time to do work.

However, even when Jesus Christ himself WAS proselytizing, he never FORCED it on anyone, shoving it in their face. If someone didn't want to hear it, he told his followers to "shake the dust off their feet" and move on. He wasn't looking to drag in unwilling converts, but to find those with an open heart who wanted to hear his message.

So, all that being said, if we are in the break room and for some reason the topic of religion, God, creation, etc. comes up, I will participate in that conversation. However, there is a line that it is important not to cross.

I have also known people who were very open and agressive with their Atheistic beliefs too. At a previous job, one guy was all the time talking about how stupid Christians are, or how much he hates church people, or how he would like to have religion banned. If someone engaged in a conversation with him taking the opposite view, he would disrespectfully quip, "If you believe that, you are stupid!"

Doc - Not a bad summation of the difference between the 1st amendment and the Civil Rights Act. I'm just not sure what your point is. Neither of those laws would prevent me from talking to someone at work about my religious beliefs. If they ask me to stop and I don't, I could be sanctioned by my employer for harassment and interferring with the other person's ability to do their job. In that case I'm being disciplined for my behavior, not the religious content of my discussion.

Also, I defy you to find one single workplace where the only thing that occurs is work. People talk about their personal lives, last night's television shows, blah, blah, blah, in absolutely every workplace. Doing so does not infringe on anyone's rights.

What really irks me is the fact that it is the pubs religious right pushing their agenda on the rest of us . At least Jehovah Witnesses knock on your door and leave a flier there, then go away. The evangelicals and born agings are much more brazen and pushy. Their way or the high way attitude must come to a stop. They are mixing religion with politics and think we must follow them and their ideals. This kind of thing is dangerous and will and is causing many problems in government today. Women's wright to choose , birth control and abortions in the cases of rape or incest just to name a few.

bob

That's a fact. If you're on the job, keep your mouth shut about your personal religious beliefs. Believe me, nobody wants to hear it. The guy got fired for good cause... end of story.

I too am a very religious person and out of the 15 person department, 3 of us are very religious. We all happen to be Christian, but among my student staff, I've had Buddhist, Muslims, Hindus and a smattering of other things including atheists. I have engaged in religious discussions IF someone else brought up the topic. Of course, I have the luck of working in a place where I've been able to attend many cultural and religious events of traditions throughout the world. Religion should always be subordinated to the setting. The funny thing is that the more you talk about religion the less impact you have. You have to let people ask you. Just live your life, when questions come up about what you did or are doing over the weekend, say the truth. I went to church, or my church and I went and did..... People will quickly learn that you are a person of faith. If they are ready, they will ask you. This guy messed up terribly. He probably did more damage than good. But then, zealots generally do.

One other thing to keep in mind when dealing with the evengelicals.... Part of the reason they are so pushy is that they are told that you will go to hell if you don't believe a, b and c. *sigh* As if some minister knows the will of God. Anyway, the get pushy because they are pretty desperate to save as many people as possible. I cannot tell you how many times, I've been told by an evangelical, even though I profess Christianity, that it is not the right form of Christianity to be saved. But really, the more they like you, the more they may push, because they honestly are worried about you. It's crazy because they are more than likely pushing you away. *shakes head* I can never quite figure out why they do it.

At one point this guy was in a managerial role. If he persisted in giving his employees unwanted religious material, that can definitely be seen as harassment, since employees then wonder if, by not accepting his particular brand of religion, it will impact their work assignments and reviews. Open discussion of religion as part of life is one thing, but causing people who report to you to feel pressured about religion is another - I know, I've been there. I once had a supervisor who spent a lot of time letting all of us know we needed to be saved if we wanted salvation. He was constantly handing out leaflets and inviting us to revivals. He didn't know how to dial it down - but it left all of his staff VERY uncomfortable.

It is a guilt trip . They feel that they must make up for all the sins they committed before they were born again. Give enough time some go back to their old evil ways . I've known a few fallen angels in my time.

Yes, differnet, and those evangelical types firmly believe that it is their duty to drag everyone into their little salvation club, and that they will go to hell if they don't convert everyone they can.

It is their pushing that has caused the atheists and non-religious and those of different religions to rise up in a backlash. I for one am sick of these pushy Christians, and now I push back. If they can put up signs and billboards promoting their beliefs, I am all for the atheists and others to do the same.

I'm an atheist and I will never discuss my beliefs in the workplace. It is suicide to one's career to project religion or political leanings. Even if most people are fine with it, it just takes one pissed off person to make a work environment hell.

I'd rather be judged on my work performance than my personal beliefs.

On top of preaching to other people at work, these 'highly religious' people demand special treatment, like taking time off for various religious reasons (from 'no work on sabbath' to fixed days off for 'religious functions'). Other employees are pissed because they have to pull extra load because of that, which of course ruins the team morale.

I worked for a Rabbi once who never pushed me on any religious issue. Never asked me of my beliefs outright but would answer my questions when I wasn't sure on a Jewish tradition, belief or holiday that I was helping to prepare for. It was a delight. Not being religious myself, I enjoyed working for the Rabbi and learning the culture and religion the Rabbi taught me through our projects. We would share thoughts when the timing was correct over issues seen on the news or articles we had read. I never felt judged by the rabbi for my personal beliefs.

I then worked in a public school and my boss was also a minister. Weekly I was invited to their service and asked what my weekend plans were and was expected to pray with them if I was at lunch with them (we often had working lunches). I never did and felt rather uncomfortable about the situation. While I was still treated fairly as an employee, there were times when I was stressed that I would get told "You know, you just need a little more God in your life."

The point is- I don't mind if someone prays over their own lunch. My current secretary does. But don't expect me to join you. I'll be quiet while you do so and resepct that you have that belief.

Why does everyone get so worked up because some guy tried to convince people the easter bunny is real???

Really, you work for NASA and you think a video on ID is worthy of distribution? He should have been fired just for being a moron.

@EngEsq

While I am a person of Christian belief, I do not go to a standard rank-and-file Catholic or Protestant church, and in fact have beliefs that differ significantly from most Christians on a wide array of topics. So, after having those discussions with other employees in the past, I often found that there was something *different* in how they interacted with me. They were more standoffish and polite-but-cold. People I used to regularly chat with suddenly were too busy to say anything but, "Good morning". For one born-again evangelical, it took everything he had to mask his disdain for me on a regular basis. This was in a small town in the South. Now I work in a larger city in the Northeast, and have found people to be more accepting of differences to a degree.

So, I sort of know where you are coming from on that. It is not easy being the different person in a group where everyone is the same.

Interestly, my last boss was an open homosexual, and we often had conversations about this. The same people who shunned her shunned me too.

I have read all the legal documents in this case. Coppedge handed out DVDs on "Intelligent Design", but later would demand payment for them. Coppage insisted the Earth was only a few thousand years old and was pushy about it in a workplace filled with scientists. He also aggressively campaigned for proposition 8, claiming gays were evil. Another topic was "global warming is a hoax". He would accuse people of being "Democrats" and "liberals" and "atheists" if they didn't agree with him. He also hated the "Holiday Party", insisting angrily that it be renamed the "Christmas Party".

According to the filings, some 45 employees complained about Coppedge's aggressive preaching. Because of the complaints from co-workers, his supervisor had a conference with him and told him to quit preaching at work. He became belligerent and the discussion got heated. Later, when he still refused to alter these habits, his title was removed but his salary remained the same. He filed a complaint which prompted an investigation. The investigator found Coppedge at fault after talking with numerous complainants. Coppedge filed a "religious discrimination" lawsuit. When drastic budget reductions necessitated layoffs for about 250 people, he was one of the ones laid off. He then amended his suit to include wrongful termination.

Coppedge's actions are intolerable in the workplace, but especially so in a scientific workplace. There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of behavior. Freedom of religion was never intended to grant protections to incessant aggressive creationist propaganda in a place of employment.

I think, too, that many evangelicals are threatened by the existence of other beliefs. The need to keep reinforcing to themselves that THEY are on the right track, THEY have THE TRUTH.

Actually, probably the best thing that he could do would be to live Christianity, not proselytize it. All these external things mean very little; it's not about talking the talk. It's about walking the walk.

"God is too big to fit into any one religion."

Hey Will, I'm glad you are in another work environment now. I'm aware my lack of religious beliefs would be problematic for me at work. I wouldn't be fired over it, but co-workers can make life miserable in more subtle ways if they so desire.

Honestly, I'm fine knowing that my co-workers are religious. If we could treat each other with respect this issue would be moot. I don't think religion has to be toxic in the workplace, but it just takes one person to screw it up.

Izzy - I find that the weaker people are, the more people they need to have in their camp. Your rabbi is probably a strong person who truly believes and doesn't need to have others agree with him in order to keep strong in his faith. It's the weak hypocrites who don't practice what they preach who need to see their own faith constantly affirmed by adding others to it. They're only strong in large numbers but don't have the backbone to stand firmly on their own and let others be.

the backbone to stand firmly on their own and let others be.

Precisely. That's the formula. The degree of zealotry is directly proportional to the weakness of the faith of the individual exampling it. A strong faith has nothing to prove.

For some Christians, the statement in the Bible:

" . . .Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." Matthew 28: 19-20

literally is a command from Jesus the Christ to convert EVERYONE to Christianity. Evangelism is not just part of the religious beliefs, it truly is the central to their religion. For them, you can not be a Christian unless you are actively working to have others become Christians.

In such a case, you truly can't seperate the person from their religion and require that they not evangelize. The only issue remaining is when the zealousness of the activity reaches the level of harrrassment and intimidation, particularly when a manager is involved.

In this case, IMO the guy has no case, unless he can prove that otherwise equal persons who were not religious were not demoted and terminated.

What you don't understand about Evangelicals is this: they are REQUIRED by their religion to recruit and convert people. My mother believed she couldn't go to heaven UNLESS she could "bring someone with her." Now, like alot of the posters here I'm a very religious person who DOES discuss various religious topics at work with a certain co-worker. We don't argue, it's more of an intellectual thing. We used to have a co-worker who (for some reason) couldn't stand it when these discussions occurred. (Let me point out that I work at a private religious college.) We never dragged her into the discussion, she just had to put on headphones so she didn't have to hear us. To me, that's no different than having two male co-workers go into detail about last night's sports game - something I don't care about, and yeah I might put on headphones to drown them out. They probably wouldn't care to listen to my rock music anyway.

I think people DO have the right to their religious beliefs, and asking people to "leave them at the door" is asking too much. Would you ask a Union worker to do that? But there comes a time when such things, either religious or other types of recruitment at work become disruptive, and if you're in an "at will" state an employer can fire you for this. Besides, it's likely that Coppedge really was the victim of mass layoffs, and his religious recruitment really wasn't the reason (though it probably was a contributing factor). With this economy, I have no trouble believing the employers.

Although the guy was rally let go because his project was winding down, he could have been let go for his actions as well. Preaching at people and distributing unsolicited religious material in a government office is not permitted. The fact that he was preaching to people about intelligent design and handing out religious DVDs in the office would have been grounds for his dismissal. This guy was warned more than once to knock it off and ignored the warnings as well. Religion has no place in a business office environment unless your business happens to be religion. There are two things that it is best not to discuss in the office and those are religion and politics. Engaging in either on government property on government time is grounds for being disciplined, up to and including being fired for repeated violations.

If he wants to be a preacher, let him go become a preacher. He should not have been initiating religious discussions in the office. Of course the fact that the program he was working on was winding down was the real reason he as let go, so he has no case. However, even if his preaching was the reason he was let go, he still has no case since what he was doing was a violation of government regulations anyway.

I wonder how this moron would have felt if some "black arts" character was constantly waiving chicken feet in his face and proclaiming that the big, bad, mumbo-jumbo was going to take them to a cave in the Arctic Circle and make them watch re-runs of Andy of Mayberry till their eyes bled.

By the way, I can save you from this fate if you will just leave twenty bucks on my desk. Your welcome to take one of the dried eye of newt as a profession of your faith. Just put it on a string and hang it around your neck, then I won't bother you no more.

Bob religion will always be mixed with politics. Both have an impact on peoples lives.If my german ancestory child goes to school with your jewish ancestory child and the school calls the mennorah an ethnic not a religious symbol but the fir tree is called a religious symbol not an ethnic symbol you have a political conflict in the making because for my child the fir tree goes back to pre-christianity as an ethnic symbol. The decision was not made on the basis of religion in the first place it was made on the basis of politics or who is less likely to get mad and not vote for me.

What I don't understand is how us not wanting to hear their constant "blah, blah, blah" about infringes on their freedom of religion or not wanting religion in our government trampbles their freedom of religion.

Long before I stopped believing in God, long before I was even agnostic, I always made it a point to respect other's views on God. For example, I believe in keeping religion out of schools and out of the government...but when I was much younger I believed that if I wanted to pray in school then so should the Muslim or the Hindu or the Jewish kids if they so chose to do so. I don't understand why some Christians feel they have the market cornered on beliefs.

As far as this guy goes...I'm sure he's not the only openly christian person who works at NASA so his argument is completely invalidated. Forcing your religion on others does not count as "excercising your right to religious freedom".

Your employer is paying you to work, and when you do, your time belongs to them. I hope this guy loses his lawsuit big time.

When I was a younger person, one of our vice presidents called me into his office, shut the door, held my hands and asked me if I "was ready to receive Christ as my savior". What the hell was he thinking?? That was 30 years ago. He couldn't get away with that now.

I too am religious. I have a saying posted on my cubicle wall attributed to CS Lewis that says it all (to paraphrase)"

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of the oppressed may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent busibodies".

I believe this was ment to apply to bureaucrats", but could definitely be applied to those who force their religious beliefs on others.

Yeah; Religion and Facebook can also be a Toxic Brew. Just ask my ex-Friends I Wholeheartedly Insulted.

Keep your Religion out of my Government; pay your Taxes Now!!

I think you are all missing the point. Conservative fundamentalist evangelical Christians like to punk other people--they enjoy making other people uncomfortable, and they like filing lawsuits to clog up the courts. They also take the chance of being terminated because then they might get enough money in a settlement (if the other party settles to make the suit go away) that they do not have to work any more and can just run around bullying others.

Westboro Baptist Church has perfected this as an art form.

The man was trying to make money off his DVDs. He was probably perfectly delighted when told to "knock it off" because it gave him the chance to get a lawyer (probably paid for by a conservative fundamentalist evangelical Christian--I'm tired of typing that out, so CFEC--think tank) and because it gets him attention.

Even if he loses his lawsuit, he can now go on the CFEC circuit and make some very serious bucks doing presentations. Back in the day, they used to have speakers who came in basically for free and the churches used to have workshops and seminars for free. These days, everything costs money--$5 to hear this person speak, $10 to attend this special prayer circle and breakfast with the well-known CFEC activist--and the money lines the pockets of the professional agitators.

There are even people who are bisexual who suddenly realize that if they convert and go "straight" (which doesn't bother them much, as they are bisexual) that they can make even more money still by claiming to have a "cure" for people's gay children. It's become a big scam--and the fellow's duplicitousness gives it away. He is entirely too aggressive (especially in trying to charge money for the DVDs that people probably just threw away--and which he might have retrieved from the trash to "gift" to other people) to be sincere.

That suit will get bounced out on summary judgment. The employer laid him off due to budget cuts and downsizing. He's making a stink about nothing. Maybe they secretly fired him for his beliefs. But he'll never prove it and the burden of proof is upon him to make.

Morrigan, nice post.

I once asked that "nice Cristian Lady" (as I posted about above, and during brake time) as to why she didn't do the "proselytizing" thing at work, as some of the other "Christians" at work did.

She answered by saying that she does, in fact, do it. Every day. The best way to do it, was to live your faith and "Become a Lighthouse, not a Predator.", "People with questions seek answers, not threats.". Her favorite saying was to "Be a sponge, not a brick.".

Oh! She also believed in not taking crap from anyone. In that respect, she would often say "I turn the other cheek..., but I only have two!".

LOL. I miss her.

Coppedge admitted in a court filing that he was engaging his co-workers in religious conversation, most notably handing out DVDs on intelligent design, and that he was warned by a supervisor to cut it out because it amounted to “pushing religion,” and that the dialogue was “unwelcome” and “disruptive.”

Power attracts and does not need force to convince. Leaders lead through example. Your employer did not hire you to force religion down the throat of others. Well deserved.

In such a case, you truly can't seperate the person from their religion and require that they not evangelize.

No one told him he couldn't evangelize. He just shouldn't have been doing it during working hours.

It`s the employers responsibility protect employees from any person suffering a mental illness such as delusions.

Perhaps if the Framers of the Constitution had written "...freedom FROM religon..." instead "...OF religon..." Two little letters but they sure make a big difference.

You have the right to pray in your home, pray in your church, and believe what you want to believe but keep your beliefs in your head and heart outside of those two buildings.

If one of Coppedge's co-workers had been Muslim and tried to convince him that Islam was the One True Way, that his wife and all the women in his life should wear hijabi, etc., you *know* he would have burned a path to the Head Office to complain.

He claims to want a type of tolerance he would *never* have given anyone else. Toss the case out on its ear.

And you *know* Fox "News" is going to turn this into a big, "America hates Christians" thing. People in the Right-wing blogosphere will be soiling themselves in lathered excitement over it.

I like the current Facebook meme: "Religion is like a p*nis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to do what you want with it at home, but don't shove it in my face or wave it at my children."

DocHolliday-2979123, #1.1- EXCELLENT!!! What a GREAT! post. Thank you for putting it out there to be read. (and now substitute "Political Affiliation" for Religion, and go word for word, in your post, under the legalities-dynamics of "Discrimination" and "Harassment"?) I think this also shows a little more why Religious "Social Service" Organizations SHOULD NOT be allowed to acquire ANY Public Funding for their endeavors. period

Thanks, again! Definately a refreshing "Holiday" given and taken!!!!!!!!!

I work with EXTREMELY religious people - A Pentecostal, 2 Catholics, 1 Reformed Christian and 1 Greek Orthodox.

and im the lone non-believer, who is also a lesbian.

It's not easy to take the Dont Ask Dont Tell approach in a job, but after 8 years ive come to be ok with it...and appreciate it to some degree.

I talk openly about my partner, whom everyone knows lives with me...and I carpool with, and I take to her accupuncture appointments (she has multiple sclerosis so it's part of her treatment)...and I am not shy about mentioning her name if it's part of the discussion (such as what did you do this weekend).

But I just dont feel comfortable sitting everyone down - as a group, or inviduallly and saying:

Just so you know, im a lesbian...and you just need to know this about me, and respect it and accept me.

So, on that note...I have no respect for ANY PERSON who pushes their religion on other people, especially evangelicals.

THERE IS A TIME AND PLACE FOR EVERYTHING...and the respectful christians understand the workplace, isnt that time or place to go around recruiting and preaching.

Just like with ones faith - if someone asks, it's absolutely ok to talk about it...just like if someone asked me if I was gay, I would be honest.

But know one has, despite all the clear signs...and I take that as a very clear signal its just not something my coworkers want to talk about.

And as such, I RESPECT THAT.

rkb5555
"This is the number one BS excuse everyone makes. What do you define as shoving down your throat?"

Let's start with what I go through at work:

Being told "I need to give Jesus a chance", "I had a bad childhood", "I haven't gone to the right church", "I haven't met the right woman" (as in religious), "I don't understand" and lots of other insulting comments that were unsolicited. All because I said "no thanks" to the going to church question and answered the "but why?" part with a simple "I don't believe in it". I've been left out of work converstations because a particular group of supervisors went to the same church and I was the only one that didn't. In that ONE manager's defense, when I brought it up, he did make a point to let me know what was going on. I suspect this was because he was generally fair in how he ran things and it didn't occur to him.

I also receive, at work, intentional "god bless you"s for sneezing, emails on angels watching over me, emails on praying for me. But, my all-time favorite was the e-mail that I wasn't really a citizen because I don't believe. These same people are my 'peers' for my review, so that when I had been outed, I suddenly became offensive and arrogant. Nevermind that there were never any examples on the review and even asking to be told what it was that I did produced no examples (aside from eye-rolling... I wasn't aware that there was a facial expression code of conduct when given a bunch of b.s.).

Personally, I could care less what religious stuff is put up around an individuals cubicle or work area, but in common areas, this posting of bible verses and Jesus pictures is a bit much. We even have a line leader who has the people under her reciting hymns. They're also pressured to go to her church. These same religious people also went around to tell people that if they didn't vote against gay marriage, they were going against god.

We have closeted people from various groups that don't want to be hassled at work, so they put up with the proselytizing. It does create a bad work environment because the double standard is mentally draining to deal with.

The way I see it, if I can go to work and start preaching about Jesus then everyone can start preaching their religion. Personally, I don't want to be thinking about it while I'm trying to focus on work which is what many have to do anyways. I don't want my work place to turn into a melting pot of religion and philosophical ideas while at the same time trying to work. If someone asks at work, I'll talk to them about it... that's as far as I'll go at work, as most who have a religion should.

It is suicide to one's career to project religion or political leanings. Even if most people are fine with it, it just takes one pissed off person to make a work environment hell.

This.

The workplace is like a first date... you never discuss religion or politics. With all the harassment cases in the workplace, it's best to just stay away from all of it. Otherwise you can be seen as a liability when promotion time comes around.

Religion is a personal belief... keep it personal.

I've always worked in an academic setting and never experienced any of this. So, this story and these posts are fairly shocking. But they do go some distance toward helping me understand what is going on in the Republican primary right now. Apparently the "believers" actually think it is their duty to control what all of us do.

Outrageous.

Employees have religious rights in the workplace, but wearing your religion on your sleeve at work can be hazardous to your career.

Keep all your religion bs at your home and the church. The workplace is for work, not for promoting your religions bs beliefs onto others that must have contact with the sheeple that want to advertise their religions in the workplace.

Tax all church and religions, or shut them all down.

As usual, nearly every time you hear Christians claim to be the victim of persecution, it's nothing more than them losing their position of privilege or a curtailment of their ability to force their beliefs on others. Christians control all three branches of government, dominate the entire command and control structure of the world's most powerful military, have a near monopoly over the U.S. economy, and exercise a voter majority so large that they can, and regularly do, violate the constitutional rights of others.

Christians are not @!$%#ing persecuted in America.

Toasty, I wish I could vote twice.

Every time the Christians start acting persecuted, I roll my eyes. They are the ones trying to force religion into government, schools, and every aspect of everyone's life whether they want it or not, with no respect to another person's religious freedom. They are the ones that rudely push their beliefs on others, and in some cases, if you go ahead and Google it, force people who don't believe as they do out of schools and neighborhoods. When they put up a big stink about letting kids pass out religious propaganda at school and win that right (though they shouldn't have), they get up in arms when a Wiccan does the same because they think the right to harass others is theirs alone (score one for Wiccans on that one, because it was CLASSIC, and I applaud them considering they get worse abuse than atheists). Persecuted? They're actively persecuting everyone else. Cry me a river. They just don't like it when those people push back.

Rule of Thumb: Never discuss your compensation, never discuss political views, never discuss religion and do not "do" your other co-worker/s.

That's my two cents

I thought America was all about making sure the that dominant majority cannot trample on the rights of a minority. Am I wrong?

There is one thing I dont 'get'. Religious people complaining because they can't pray in school. Nobody said that they could'nt pray in school. Nobody is forbidding them from praying. In fact people can can pray anywhere and anytime they want to-in the shower, in the car, at work, at school, in bed, out in nature, on a motorcycle etc, etc. Maybe they can't do it over the loudspeaker or as a group but so what? Its not suppose to be a public show-it's private time between a soul & the God of their choice. Right???

Well yes NHL, we're a liberal democracy. But what does that have to do with this?

What smart or idiot of a lawyer thinks this is a law suite? Damn, I wish I would have been the one to "accidentally" spill coffee on myself and sue McDees. I wonder if I can sue my company for allowing woment o wear skirts on a hot summer day, but us men have to wear pants. It's 100 degrees out and pants insulates too much heat. Maybe I'll get away with a kilt, but probably get reprimanded for sexaul harrassment or indecent wardrobe.

"Rule of Thumb: Never discuss your compensation, never discuss political views, never discuss religion and do not "do" your other co-worker/s."

Damn, I was with you all the way up to "Do not "do" your other co-worker/s"

I went to school in rural Kentucky at a time when there was not as much legislation dividing church from state. So, the school would have preachers come in under the guise of drug deterance education to talk to us about having Jesus in our life. My mother didn't particularly want a Baptist minister giving me religious instruction when a) we weren't baptist, and b) that was HER job. So, she politely asked that I be excused from these events. No drama. No law suit. Just a polite request. She also asked for the same thing regarding Christmas parties, Easter parties, and other religious events we didn't participate in. I got used to being the 'different' kid, which made me stronger later in life.

Now, I am not afraid to be the different one at work either, though I am not in people's face about it.

It's not the religion. Hell, it's not even the witnessing about how much better your life is now that you've found Jesus. It's the condescension and judgment of others because they've decided upon a different path for their own life. It's the implication that you are somehow superior and better and more worthy, and that you should be able to make decisions for others based on this knowledge you have obtained.

remember this folks - ANYONE can be FIRED (it might be for some reason other than what you suppose it is - sometimes it takes time to develop the case - but you WILL be fired.) As to this incident - They likely have a good case established for firing on OTHER THAN RELIGIOUS GROUNDS. They are NOT STUPID. The suit is a waste of time and I hope the complainer has to pay costs. THAT would put a cork in him.

I tolerate symbols and whatever at work - I don't ASK and they don't TELL - good arrangement. I'm unabashed about my "beliefs" - all "NONE OF THE ABOVE".

So he filed a suit. Judging from posters' reports on the contents of the legal documents (article didn't report=article fail) he should be charged with filing a frivolous law suit, compelled to reimburse the city/county/fed, whatever, and fined.

Apparently the "believers" actually think it is their duty to control what all of us do.

Although I don't speak very every "believer" in the Country or World, I would say I speak for most when I say we DON'Tthink it is our duty to control people. I believe this guys lawsuit is junk and should be thrown out, so please don't lump every believer into one category with this nut. Most believers just like non believers have opinions they share when appropriate with out becoming nasty, but both sides have the bad apples.

I'm atheist, and I doubt that more than one or two out of the hundreds of people I've interacted with at work in a large, international big pharma, have the slightest idea. Fortunately, the topic hardly ever comes up, since we're all fairly focused on getting work done. Of the co-workers whose religious tendencies I have any idea about, in turn, the ones who are most obvious are the ones who are also the most staunchly religious. Again, fortunately, even the most obvious ones I've worked with have never tried to proselytize at work, and we get along just fine.

Religion is like a wang. It's fine to have one, it's even fine to be proud of it. But if you take it out in public, or in a place where it disturbs the peace, or especially if you try to shove it down someone else's throat - it will rightly get you in trouble.

Not all "believers" are evangelicals, but clearly the evangelicals consider recruiting part of their duty as Christians. If I am an employer I do not want the work time that I am paying for used for these non-productive purposes. If I am a fellow employee I don't want to hear about this guy's personal religious beliefs any more than I would want to hear about his model train collection or his commitment to astrology.

PrincessBride - enjoyed your post most.

Well I’ll admit that overly religious coworkers can be rather annoying at times but no more or less than any of the other types of annoying people. In any case I don’t think we need to enact legislation to "protect" us from annoying people. Of course they should not be allowed to pass out religious materials or try to sell people on their religion while at work anymore than one should be allowed to sell Amway or anything else at work. Hounding someone to "buy" something, anything, should never be allowed in the workplace. It’s a sales thing not a religious thing. Of course I don’t have to worry about it too much because religious types never try to sell me on their religion. Maybe its because they instinctively know that if they do I will punch so many holes in their beliefs that they will start to doubt those beliefs themselves. But I have a strict live and let live policy, I don’t bother them and they don’t bother me. People have the right to believe any silly thing they want to believe. For all I care one of my coworkers can prop up a ten-foot high crucifix in his cubicle as long as he does not try to sell me on anything.

Toasty -- dominant majority Christians should not be able to force their views on the minority who do not share them.

Don -- I stand corrected, not all believers are evangelicals. However, I am watching Mr. Santorum garner large numbers of votes from people who seem to self-identify as "Christians" and share his views that everyone should behave as they think we should. Maybe I am too uniformed -- perhaps these are all evan gelicals?I'm from 'up north' and somewhat unfamiliar with what appears to be the norm in the 'bible belt' where Santorum's message seems to resonate.

I grew up in the vicinity of the Salem Witch Trials. I shudder at prescriptive religion.

hey man...i cant remember the last time god put a man on the moon...im with nasa on this one!

I got fired for the reasons similar to the article, but to this day I still cannot figure out why. I was only following our doctrines. I guess intolerance is everywhere.

After all, they knew what they were getting when they hired me. I made no secret I was a member of the 'Screaming Shin-kickers.'

Some co-workers were discussing religion, and drew my husband into the conversation because they knew his religious affiliation (and that he is clergy). He gave a reply, that literally the Bible says "Take and eat," not something else, because they asked him for his opinion. He was put on probation for years at his job, for violation of "zero tolerance." After that, he said nothing, and his stress level at work went way up because he felt they had purposely entrapped him.

When our daughter was at public school, she was disciplined for crossing herself before lunch, although all the other children at her lunch table (other Christian, Muslem, Jewish) said silent prayers and got away with it. She developed a habit of scratching her forehead, then continuing the cross slowly and in such a way that it could not be attributed to prayer. The other children supported her, and never told the teacher, although they all quietly discussed their beliefs.

Surely, there is a huge difference between harassment and a person practicing their prayers to themselves, or replying to somebody's question about an opinion. There is too little tolerance for people who are religious and only practice it.

If the DVD that worker gave out was a lecture, it was going too far. But if it was a DVD of Christmas Carols, then it is cultural and musical, and nobody should have minded. There are too many public schools that have cut out cultural history, including the great composers, because (God forbid) they composed music that mentioned God. And those music programs have replaced the great classics with poorly composed politically correct drivel that isn't worth the time to sit and listen to.

I amend my reply: the DVDs lecturing about Intelligent Design are inappropriate, more because of their content. And if he was trying to sell them? Outrageous.

But there are some problems with those who quietly practice their beliefs. What I'm getting from these posts is that aggressive people (of whatever belief) make life difficult for quieter people (of whatever belief). It is a bullying problem. If the aggressive people were truly religious, they would understand all the instructions given about not bullying ("Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." for example.)

Speaking of music: I thought it was ironic that the local classical music station was bullied into changing its frequency a number of years ago, because the aggressive "Christian" radio station, that rarely plays any religious music (much less than the classical station), wanted the more powerful frequency.

Elizabeth -

The DVDs handed out were promoting creationism as "intelligent design"; you know - evolution is a myth and the Earth is only a few thousand years old. He also aggressively demanded support for Proposition 8 (because gays are evil). He loudly called his coworkers "godless democrats" and "liberal atheists". This was at JPL - a workplace absolutely loaded with scientists. Not a very good move.

I am so sorry for your husband and your daughter. Intolerance knows no bounds today.

Have they really eliminated the great composers? Really? There should be no problem with anything, as long as it doesn't have religious lyrics or a religious title. As long as the music isn't religious, a school (and the taxpayers) should be protected from lawsuits.

I live near Salem,Massachusetts, the Witch City, where untrammeled religious nuts and ministers hanged or pressed to death 19 old women and one old man...the religious nuts also hanged 3 dogs and over 24 old ladies died in frigid dungeons while awaiting trail, before that insanity ended.

We have even more ecumenical zealots in the USA today, people who want to take away our freedoms in the name of their petty gods. It would surprise most Americans to know that a majority of our Founding Fathers were NOT religious people at all, and that includes George Washington,Ben Franklin and more.

If YOU are religious, good for you, but keep your joy inside your own house and church, and away from me and the workplace. Frankly, I believe that a lot of so-called Religious people,have deep personal demons which they are struggling with,and that by preaching to the rest of us, they feel that they are helping themselves ( not you) to handle their demons with the flesh (sex) and over eating food and alcohol, love of pornography, and their visceral hatred of everyone elses religions,politics and higher education.

Ho hum.

First racism, then class warfare (continues), in between were the borders and education issues, next women's issues, and now religion.

Guess immigration is the next thing to report on to further divide the country.

Yep, I can see Mr. Obama's campaign agenda on the wall.....divide THEN TRY to get re-elected saying he has the SOLUTION to all the problems.

Will-1091847
Post 1.2

"I am a religious person, and I have had discreet and respectful conversations at work about various religious topics when the discussion happens to come up. However, I also know the importance of being discreet about it, simply because of the political repercussions and the potential for conflict."

[The conflict comes from the abject contempt and terminal disrespect the proselytizer shows his/her involuntary audience. There is no reason for the person being bothered to show the 'botherer' courtesy which is not being showed them. I have no compulsions about 'ripping such a person a new one'. It isn't something I take pleasure in.

In the main I have no problem with religious folks and have no problem with the tactics you illustrate. Such can lead to an exploration of concepts and the ramifications and reprecussions of them. Sadly, this often leads to an irate believer and the uttering of empty toddler level threats concerning my 'eternal disposition' followed by my amused expression and possibly laughter. I might even point out their religious and overall hypocrisy.]

"In the initial story about the guy at NASA, I initially posted that he was not proselytizing at work, but if he was actively engaging people in these discussions and unwantedly handing out DVDs, then I was wrong - he was proselytizing. If he wants to do this on the street corner on his own time, he has every constitutional right. There is a time and place for everything, but while at work on the clock, it is time to do work."

[The uncivilized miscretant kept on bothering people and ignored multiple warnings by his supervisors. That's the problem when one's religion overcomes their humanity. There is a time and place for everything. Work is no place to shove one's superstition down other folks' throat. I'm sure, with the possible exception of one or two, his co-workers were themselves Christian. For those that weren't, if wasn't if they hadn't been exposed to the stone and bronze age drivel. Its not as if people aren't immersed with the bovine fecal matter in the US at almost every turn. If people are interested in checking another sect out it isn't as if their isn't a respective house of superstition near by.]

"However, even when Jesus Christ himself WAS proselytizing, he never FORCED it on anyone, shoving it in their face. If someone didn't want to hear it, he told his followers to "shake the dust off their feet" and move on. He wasn't looking to drag in unwilling converts, but to find those with an open heart who wanted to hear his message."

[Careful. You're working within the assumption J.C. existed-much less was as described. A person outside the speaker's religion has no reason to consider
his/her claims having any validity. Their world views differ. The unsupported claims of a theist-regardless of brand-as just another unsupported, and contradictory, assertion.

To those outside said superstition its as if the person was trying to sell another 'anti-gravity footware' in case gravity were to reverse. There's a very good reason 'Religious Faith' is the only faith deemed a 'virtue'.
These folks are making unwarranted assumptions. First, that gravity can reverse. Secondly, that their product will take care of the 'problem'.

In effect, (and no discourtesy intended) Christians assert to an outside audience they've constructed an invisible roof which is levitating a set distance from the ground. The Christian group might beam and have great pride in the craftmanship of the levitating invisible roof and delight in telling others how they did it. They might point to specific areas in a book which provides more information. There are three problems here. The first is it begs myriad questions. Secondly, the text is flat wrong and contains multiple internal contradictions. Thirdly, all sorts of folks are make similar nonsense claims and indicate they're the only ones who got it right and all the rest will be in deep deep trouble much much later. In short, the foundation for their 'building' hasn't been objectively established.

Your point about Jesus proselytizing and 'shaking the dust off his sandles' highlights another 'blaming the victim' and the sheer contradictive idiocy which Christianity with a manufacturing deity's famous for. They shatter at the slightest glance (which is why religious faith is invoked). Christianity, for one, self-destructs via the temporal avenue.

It should be noted a fictional world can be accepted as reality for the purposes of discussion. It can be fun and things can be learned from it.]

"So, all that being said, if we are in the break room and for some reason the topic of religion, God, creation, etc. comes up, I will participate in that conversation. However, there is a line that it is important not to cross."

[Exactly.]

"I have also known people who were very open and agressive with their Atheistic beliefs too." Post 1.2

[Here is the reason for my response: 'Atheistic beliefs'. Atheism isn't a belief structure. Theists have generated so much fuss about deity(ies) it became necessary to indicate the lack of the theism 'facet'.

There is a class of words having an 'a' prefix meaning 'without' the following property. Some of these words are:

Apolitical=without politics

Agnostic=without knowledge (generally deals specificly with 'God' which begs the question "What is there to know"?

Asynchronous=without sychronization

Atheist/atheism=without theos, theism, god(s), goddess(es)

Sadly, theists only have a problem with the last 'a' prefex item. If you want to get right down to things a theist is atheist with regard to all the other deity(ies) they lack belief in. What they get upset about is their particular deity(ies) aren't given exemptions.

This also applies to the theist with regard to all other deity(ies) which promise eternal dire reprecussions if they aren't worshipped or worshipped in the proper manner. Pascal's Moronic Wager royally chomps all theists.]

"At a previous job, one guy was all the time talking about how stupid Christians are, or how much he hates church people, or how he would like to have religion banned. If someone engaged in a conversation with him taking the opposite view, he would disrespectfully quip, "If you believe that, you are stupid!"

[Arseholes abound of whatever 'stripe'. I have found people who've recently lost their Christianity sometimes become quite angry and bitter. They might have been abused by clergy and/or family. They might see things as a betrayal by those who were supposed to protect them. The tenets of Christianity is nothing but a horror story foisted upon the young before they've any defenses. Consider the possible impact of a series of horror movies upon a toddler. The young one hasn't gathered knowledge and experience to process it all. It could be it so screwed a person up they don't know what they can count on. Such is individually dependant. How would a person deal with a royal mind @!$%# like that? I should note a discussion may not lead to agreement but seeing how a person came to their conclusion(s) is insightful.]

Speaking of music: I thought it was ironic that the local classical music station was bullied into changing its frequency a number of years ago, because the aggressive "Christian" radio station, that rarely plays any religious music (much less than the classical station), wanted the more powerful frequency.

Just for the record, in radio, as in much of life, there is no such thing as a 'more powerful frequency'. All frequencies are created equal. Really.

Jesus H. Christ, Fujikoma, where the hell do you work? My sympathies.

Tim, I think Fujikoma might work in my office (or in my geographic area)! I've learned just to keep my mouth shut and politely decline their invitations with little white lies--I have other obligations, my mother's ill, I broke my leg, I died, anything. I do not belong to the Christian religion, but I would NEVER tell anyone in my workplace of my belief system. My tires would be slashed, my house vandalized or burned, and my grandchildren beaten up on the playground. And yes, I would be setup to be fired. It's really that bad.

I'm happy that folks have their belief systems, I just wish they would keep them to themselves, especially in the workplace. I've come to (privately) judge many of these Christians by their behaviors. Unfortunately, their acts speak volumes of their nature, and very little is good. As for me, I've only got to keep my mouth shut for a couple more years, and I retire. I pity those who are stuck for longer. Good luck Fujikoma.

(BTW: "Jesus H. Christ"--I about busted a gut laughing.)

Having been in dog rescue and foster care of them for over 20 years, each one of those rescue are Get Into Heaven Card free. All dogs go to Heaven, right?

They don't worship at any particular house of prayer yet, All dogs go to Heaven.

I also prefer the story of the RainBow Bridge version of Heaven. All us dog lovers finally die and met up again with our beloved canines or felines at the Gates of Heaven and spend Eternity with each other.

This sounds so much more logical version of heaven and if giving a canine or feline a second chance at life, I have no reservations about doing my part. There is also the logic of dogs being real. Rainbow Bridge Heaven, reach it by doing a kindness to a homeless animal. That's real Christianity in action.

Shhhhhh...don't tell anyone but Jeebus's middle name is HUSSEIN !! ;)

This is how I deal w/religious nutters. Ignore/avoid them completely. Religion is a mental illness and I cannot deal w/people who lack the intelligence, logic and reason that is required to participate in the REAL WORLD. If you believe in imaginary friends, fairytales, skydaddies and pretend places of torture and glory, you're someone I don't want to deal with. You're DANGEROUS and mentally unstable and cannot be trusted ... with anything... power, decision-making, keeping confidences, etc. I don't have the time to waste listening to such drivel either. There are more important things to do in life than waste it on such unproven nonsense. If you can't "do the right thing", decide "right from wrong", treat others kindly , etc w/o threats of damnation and fear of "hell"... you have a problem. If you think religion has the corner on morality and values you are SADLY mistaken. Religion is a tool for controlling and manipulating the weak.... the sheeple....those without the guts and gumption to act on their own ... the fearful and the superstitious. REAL adults that live in the REAL world who possess REAL intelligence find such nonsense useless and ridiculous. Keep your sociopathic psychopathy to yourselves please you are UNWELCOME and UNWANTED in the REAL WORLD.

@stoney

I am flattered that someone actually took the time to read my entire post and then respond to it in a thoughtful manner. See, this is the sort of discussion one could have at work discreetly without it erupting into a "problem" discussion. Granted, I don't think we completely agree on everything, but if we did, that would make you my clone - and there can only be one of me!!!

RE:

Careful. You're working within the assumption J.C. existed-much less was as described. A person outside the speaker's religion has no reason to consider
his/her claims having any validity. Their world views differ. The unsupported claims of a theist-regardless of brand-as just another unsupported, and contradictory, assertion.

My comments about the proseletizing activities of Jesus Christ as portrayed in the Bible were directed at those of Christian belief who believe in the existence of Jesus and have a respect for the Bible. For that matter, it can be insightful for non-bellievers as well though as they observe the contradiction between a believers actions and what his beliefs are supposed to be based on.

I am a believer, and based on what I have read, this individual's actions were inappropriate at work. Whether or not we come to this conclusion for the same reason, we nonetheless have come to the same conclusion.

Regarding a person's motivations for becoming an atheist, while I do not share that viewpoint, I can see WHAT sorts of things would drive a person to become one. I am pretty sure that if the Jesus of the Bible were here now, he would want nothing to do with religion either.

http://lifeinc.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/16/10686765-religion-at-work-can-bring-fire-and-brimstone

differnet wrote in Post 1.7;

One other thing to keep in mind when dealing with the evengelicals.... Part of the reason they are so pushy is that they are told that you will go to hell if you don't believe a, b and c. *sigh* As if some minister knows the will of God."

[These folks ignore the teachings, tenets, and ramifications/repercussions of the tangled contradictory mess. By definition as well as the natterings anything which occurs *is* the Will of God[tm] and thus part of the Divine Plan[tm].

That said; each evangelical Christian *is* God. Each person is convinced they, as no two Christians agree on everything, much less their sect has it 'right'. This is another variant of not being a 'True Christian[tm] as well as the usual Christian Humility, i.e., the Sin of Pride. Each person *is* 'God'.]

"Anyway, the get pushy because they are pretty desperate to save as many people as possible."

[I find this to be quite amusing, for reasons of which I'll only post a few:

Q1; According to Christian Doctrine and the Holy Bible; *Who* manufactured (created) the Universe, Life, and The Restaurant-At-The-End-Of-The-Universe[tm]? [I couldn't resist having a bit of fun with the last. :) ]

A1: God.

Q2: *Who* was inconvenienced for your scripted sins?

A2: Jesus.

Q3: *Who* are you being saved *from*?

A3: Jesus.

With there being only 2 eternal dispositions-Heaven and Hell (where you'll be lovingly tortured for eternity (spitted and slow roasted over fires which never are quenched and you never die-hmmm are singing hosannas required? Talk about being motivated. There isn't anyone who wouldn't be sacrificed to grasp the individual 'reward'.)

With Heaven being an eternal place where adherents (if any) being toilet slaves is there much of a difference? (Holy Excrement Batman!) *Anything* deity does/requires is, by definition; just, righteous, loving, good. Note: I'll post a Heaven/Hell analysis later.

Is said evangelical terminal disrespect, discourtesy, rudeness, uncoothness about you, or is it to shore up their flagging faith and/or to avoid Hell? Remember what happened to Job who did *everything* right (scripted) and got lovingly, and righteously, screwed...err...rewarded (scripted). With such abounding and eternal 'love,' who needs enemies?

What's really a laugh riot is these folks blame their involuntary victim(s) for showing them the same disrespect, contempt, and discourtesy they show others. Many times they'll wander off muttering empty threats. That's Christian Love-empty threats.

These folks terminally, unblinkingly, and unthinkingly ignore all the older superstitions which promise eternally dire threats, but expect you to pay attention to what they bleat! Got to love that hypocrisy!

Believe it, or not, there are still Christians who bring up Pascal's Idiot Wager as if its viable! Then they are astounded when the 'argument' gets thoroughly shredded. Sometimes I almost feel sorry for them. These folks are so unprepared and are 'lambs out for the slaughter'.

I suppose I should add this aside and just as water is wet someone's going to mindlessly spout something about me 'hating god or hating Christians. They might even spout the mindnumbingly assinine binary 'for/against' drivel forgetting about the "don't give a rats tailpipe" facet.

Its one thing to talk about religion in your home, church, or wherever all listeners share a common ground or view [( can't think of the right verbiage )]. Its different when your audience is of a different religion or sect and entirely different when your audience lacks theism. In the latter case-if you want to be taken seriously-you'd best provide clear and concise definition of term(s) as well as objective supporting evidence for each claim.]

"I cannot tell you how many times, I've been told by an evangelical, even though I profess Christianity, that it is not the right form of Christianity to be saved. Then there's'You can't be a TRUE Christian[tm] unless..."

[The common Sin of Pride strikes again. Of course, its unthinkable s/he might have the wrong form.]

"But really, the more they like you, the more they may push, because they honestly are worried about you."

[Really? Objective supporting evidence their view, rather than yours, being the correct one? The 'you' can be general, too. Are they seeking to shore up shakey faith?]

"It's crazy because they are more than likely pushing you away. *shakes head* I can never quite figure out why they do it."

[See items towards the top of my (unfortunately lengthy) post. Almost forgot the Heaven/Hell Climate Comparison. If you can use some chuckles word search 'holy round meal' and 'pun(s) cascade(s)'.

quote

From: stoney <sto...@the.net>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Do you believe in heaven or hell?
Message-ID: <10qj83p7jc9dm0q7192dna4qoklmpk9f3d@4ax.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:10:17 -0700

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2007/06/heaven_or_hell/comments.html#comments

Do you believe in heaven or hell?
/quote

No more than Christians believe in Valhalla or any other mythos other
than theirs. In short, not at all.

If not, why not?
/quote

Probably for the same reasons Christians don't believe in the eternal
consequenses of superstitions older than theirs.

In short, no reason to.

BTW, ya'll might find this tidbit of interest;

/quote
But some recent research on the temperature of Hell yields surprising
results:

"The temperature of Heaven can be rather accurately computed. Our
authority is Isaiah 30:26:

"Moreover, the light of the Moon shall be as the light of the Sun and
the light of the Sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days."

Thus Heaven receives from the Moon as much radiation as we do from the
Sun, and in addition 7 x 7 (49) times as much as the Earth does from the
Sun, or 50 times in all. The light we receive from the Moon is one
1/10,000 of the light we receive from the Sun, so we can ignore that.
The radiation falling on Heaven will heat it to the point where the heat
lost by radiation is just equal to the heat received by radiation, i.e.,
Heaven loses 50 times as much heat as the Earth by radiation. Using the
Stefan-Boltzmann law for radiation, (H/E)^4 = 50, where E is the
absolute temperature of the earth (-300ºK), gives H as 798ºK (525ºC).

The exact temperature of Hell cannot be computed. However, Revelation
21:8 says:

"But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the
lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."

A lake of molten brimstone [sulphur] means that its temperature must be
at or below its boiling point, 444.6ºC.We have, then, that Heaven, at
525ºC is hotter than Hell at 445ºC."

From: Applied Optics (1972, 11 A14)

/end quote

--
Atheist n A person to be pitied in that he is
unable to believe things for which there is
no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of
a convenient means of feeling superior to others.

—Chaz Bufe, The American Heretic’s Dictionary

I alluded to this above, but here is the environment I grew up near - Church? State? School? Eh - whats the difference...

http://harlandaily.com/view/full_story/17988047/article-Harlan-County-ventriloquist-entertains-children?#cb_post_comment_17988047

Replying to: Will in post 1.76

@stoney

I am flattered that someone actually took the time to read my entire post and then respond to it in a thoughtful manner. See, this is the sort of discussion one could have at work discreetly without it erupting into a "problem" discussion. Granted, I don't think we completely agree on everything, but if we did, that would make you my clone - and there can only be one of me!!!

[Heh. A world of clones would be terminally boring. Note: I'm having to try to rebuild my reply. Old computer and the new cable modem should arrive later in the week.]

RE:

Careful. You're working within the assumption J.C. existed-much less was as described. A person outside the speaker's religion has no reason to consider his/her claims having any validity. Their world views differ. The unsupported claims of a theist-regardless of brand-as just another unsupported, and contradictory, assertion.

"My comments about the proseletizing activities of Jesus Christ as portrayed in the Bible were directed at those of Christian belief who believe in the existence of Jesus and have a respect for the Bible."

[Then why not specify such (not said unkindly)? It's one thing when one's audience holds the same background view-like in the home and church. In a world-wide forum such does not hold true. (aside; I see you're from St. Louis, Missouri. While active duty I've run into quite a few from Missouri and have indicated their from, or escaped, from 'Misery'. News articles I've read in the last few years demonstrate, effectively, its going back in time a few hundred years. Effectively, 'Misery' appears to be a theocracy and is the epitome of what happens when religion locks out common humanity.)
Your audience is of many religions and of no religion.

You're also assuming all Christian readers are of the same sect and have the same Bible. They aren't and don't-and have been torturing and slaughtering each other over points of doctrine for millenia.

Working within your comments-at face value-is problematical. First off, 'JC' has no need to proselytize. Things have no choice but to proceed as scripted. Secondly, 'JC' doesn't adhere to what he preaches or what's written in the Bible. Hellacious hypocracy. Sin of Pride, Bearing of False Witness, Doesn't Honor his Mother, Doesn't allow a disciple to honor his dead father by going to his funeral. Thirdly, lies to his Disciples as goes in disguise and, in secret, up to the feast. Insults his hosts (different feast) by not washing his hands. Breaks the Sabbath worse than a non-Christian who was stoned to death for picking up sticks. There's much more, but this gives a sampling. Some time ago on another net 'location' a neat lady made a comment. I gently replied; "Then God can lie to you and it would be 'good'. She gasped and said; "I don't want to go there". I chuckled and told her that was fine. I said no more about it and chatter went on about other things.]

"For that matter, it can be insightful for non-bellievers as well though as they observe the contradiction between a believers actions and what his beliefs are supposed to be based on."

[Contradictions, and errors, abound in scripture itself as well as the teachings and actions of the JC character. Some believers indicate whatever they do is "God's Will". Others indicate it doesn't matter what they do as they were saved years ago. Still others indicate their only responsibility is to 'ask for forgiveness (and it will be granted) after each transgression. What they did/done to individual(s) is immaterial.

If a person fails miserably-its "God's Will" but their fault, too. If a person succeeds-their supposed to 'thank' Jeebus even though it was done through their own hard work! Then their are those who've lost loved ones, had to have cancer and/or brain surgery (for example). I've inquired about 1Thess5:15-17 and had some reply they've 'thanked' JC for his 'loving gift', but said it was damned damned difficult. These folks I've thanked for their honest reply and wished them well. I'm sure they realized the massive irony.

Contrast that with me. I alone am responsible for what I do-successes and failures alike. Ahead of me lies death. I've no 'promise of Heaven' nor 'eternal threat of loving and righteous torture in Hell'. Many Christians have asked me what keeps me doing good, not ill. They don't like when I reply (since I'm not 'leashed' or 'chained') I can be trusted 'off leash'. Many/most Christians don't realize their question says volumes about them-none of it good. And, no, I'm not indicating I'm a model, or any standard, to emulate.]

"I am a believer, and based on what I have read, this individual's actions were inappropriate at work. Whether or not we come to this conclusion for the same reason, we nonetheless have come to the same conclusion."

[Agreed]

"Regarding a person's motivations for becoming an atheist, while I do not share that viewpoint, I can see WHAT sorts of things would drive a person to become one. I am pretty sure that if the Jesus of the Bible were here now, he would want nothing to do with religion either. post 1.76"

Not motivation(s). You've got it backwards as well as forgetting another aspect entirely. Some people were never taught to be theist. As for another aspect, as a child you might have believed in Santa Claus. As one grows older and learns-the belief faded and vanished.

Just like Santa-some people's motivation to believe in deity(ies) vanishes. The belief motivation disappears. Its no different than a lack of belief in many other things. I'm sure many of the things I lack belief in some/many/most Christians lack belief in, too.

I've addressed the problems with 'Jesus of the Bible' towards the top of this post. Every so often I check my nick+y[]aemail(numerical4)you()com account.

For me, I don't care what your sect concerning any religion, or lack of religion is. It comes to what sort of person you are.

In considering things this tidbit might be of some interest. Some years ago on usenet some trolls (theist or otherwise) cross-posted a bunch of crap from various christian newsgroups to a non-theist one. Of course, replies were generated. The disruption to all listed newsgroups piqued the interest to a Christian lady in S. Carolina. It surprised the lady to learn the non-theist group(s) weren't the ones who initiated the furor, but were victimized as she was.

She quickly found out-when they were left alone-they were content to discuss current affairs, conduct all sorts of hijinks, pun cascades, troubleshooting, exploration of this, that, and many other things.

These folks were fine with discussing how they saw various theistic concept(s)/idea(s). Had no problem listening to how *she* saw things. There might be exploratory questions, but that was it. She wasn't projecting her theism onto those outside. She mentioned several times we treated her (with respect and courtesy) much better than her Christian brethen.

She'd join in the mirth and merriment and was a much welcome member of the newsgroup. Woe be the atheist, or, theist who gave her guff. Then she asked for advice. She had a problem with her church. They had some sort of outbuilding she wanted to utilize one day a week for a couple of hours to get project kids out of the projects. One day the bldg. would be utilized while other day might be fishing off a pier. I gave some suggestions and others when the janitor became a problem. She said she couldn't say who or where the suggestions came from, or they wouldn't be utilized. I didn't give a rip about 'credit'.

12 maybe 18 months later I was invited to meet some folks in another city for a weekend. I went and it was fun. A couple of times we hit a fast food joint. Common and no biggie. I visited several other atheists, big whoop. I then why it later seemed odd. This table was fully occupied by non-theists.

I guess it 'blew her mind'. She asked if this was the first time in my life I had sat down for a meal with only non-theists at the table. I replied I was certain it had happened in the past, but this was the first time the subject had ever come up-unvoicingly. I realized it after I got home. It took her a while to mentally process that-especially when she knew my age. She met me and my family when we happened to be going through her town to another location. She was as neat a lady in person as online.]

bob1/28

What really irks me is the fact that it is the pubs religious right pushing their agenda on the rest of us . At least Jehovah Witnesses knock on your door and leave a flier there, then go away. The evangelicals and born agings are much more brazen and pushy. Their way or the high way attitude must come to a stop. They are mixing religion with politics and think we must follow them and their ideals. This kind of thing is dangerous and will and is causing many problems in government today. Women's wright to choose , birth control and abortions in the cases of rape or incest just to name a few.

bob

post 1.4

Superstitious Reich (religious reich Seig Heil, Jebus!) .

The US was never set up to be a theocracy. If these brain dead hypocritical looney tunes want a theocracy there are myriad mid-eastern 'garden spots' to choose and migrate to. These folks are the freaking problem!

The US is projected to be the "Land of the Free and Home of the Brave." These Brain Dead Pig Ignorant Nut Cases are the epitome of "Terminal Totalitarian Cowardice[TM]"

These folks are cordially invited to sit on rough wood conical form and rotate at a high rate of speed. I trust they'll be blessed with a cornucopia of splinters.

{1- I'm showing them the same respect they show others.

2-According to their big stone and bronze age tome of rampant insanity- {1Thess5:17} I have no choice other than to type these words. Y'all can take your complaints up with Jebus.

homesick yank wrote in post 1.10

"Yes, differnet, and those evangelical types firmly believe that it is their duty to drag everyone into their little salvation club, and that they will go to hell if they don't convert everyone they can.

It is their pushing that has caused the atheists and non-religious and those of different religions to rise up in a backlash. I for one am sick of these pushy Christians, and now I push back. If they can put up signs and billboards promoting their beliefs, I am all for the atheists and others to do the same.e evangelical types firmly believe that it is their duty to drag everyone into their little salvation club, and that they will go to hell if they don't convert everyone they can."

[According to the Xian superstition, all are actors in a pointless play hitting their marks and spouting their lines as scripted when 'God' muttered the magic words.

Evangelical hubris is quite amusing. I've yet to see one admitting *they* got it wrong while another Xian sect got it right. This, in spite of the fact Xianity is as a babe at first suck compared to its elder deity(ies).]

No religious tome-especially the Bible-has NO legal standing in the USA.

"It is their pushing that has caused the atheists and non-religious and those of different religions to rise up in a backlash. I for one am sick of these pushy Christians, and now I push back. If they can put up signs and billboards promoting their beliefs, [You know, I could have lots of fun with this subject via my art work! :D Cue modification of the 'Blazing Saddles' scene where the black sheriff ' Clevon Little' faces an all white lynch mob and puts his pistol to his head and acts like he's been taken hostage and the mob gets all sympathetic.]I am all for the atheists and others to do the same."
IT'S A FRACKIN’ CRACKER!

Category: Religion • Stupidity
Posted on: July 8, 2008 8:05 PM, by PZ Myers

There are days when it is agony to read the news, because people are so goddamned stupid. Petty and stupid. Hateful and stupid. Just plain stupid. And nothing makes them stupider than religion.

Here's a story that will destroy your hopes for a reasonable humanity.

[Please note atheists *are* non-religious and its a lack of beilief. In effect, 'bald' is a lack of hair and not a hair color.

I've seen billboards with the text; "Real Men Love Jesus".

Imagine if right below was the rejoiner; "But Straight Men Prefer Women".

I can see that righteous vandelism (and possible murder of the bank roller(s)) now.

Here's a Goodie about the terminal superstition idiocy and rampant inhumanity. http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/its_a_goddamned_cracker.php

Mr. Myers was astounded at the feral reaction. I wasn't.

IT'S A FRACKIN’ CRACKER!

Category: Religion • Stupidity
Posted on: July 8, 2008 8:05 PM, by PZ Myers

There are days when it is agony to read the news, because people are so goddamned stupid. Petty and stupid. Hateful and stupid. Just plain stupid. And nothing makes them stupider than religion.

Here's a story that will destroy your hopes for a reasonable humanity.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=912931E6387D06E86603288C86CA66A1?contentId=6932236&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

[Mr. Meyers hadn't learned religion and reason are diametric opposites and, too often,humanity vanishes with it.]

**Webster Cook says he smuggled a Eucharist, a small bread wafer that to Catholics symbolic of the Body of Christ after a priest blesses it, out of mass, didn't eat it as he was supposed to do, but instead walked with it.**

This isn't the stupid part yet. He walked off with a cracker that was put in his mouth, and people in the church fought with him to get it back. It is just a cracker!

http://www.wftv.com/news/16798008/detail.html

**Catholics worldwide became furious.**

Would you believe this isn't hyperbole? People around the world are actually extremely angry about this — Webster Cook has been sent death threats over his cracker. Those are just kooks, you might say, but here is the considered, measured response of the local diocese:

** "We don't know 100% what Mr. Cooks motivation was," said Susan Fani a spokesperson with the local Catholic diocese. "However, if anything were to qualify as a hate crime, to us this seems like this might be it."

We just expect the University to take this seriously," she added "To send a message to not just Mr. Cook but the whole community that this kind of really complete sacrilege will not be tolerated."**

Wait, what? Holding a cracker hostage is now a hate crime? The murder of Matthew Shephard was a hate crime. The murder of James Byrd Jr. was a hate crime. This is a goddamned cracker. Can you possibly diminish the abuse of real human beings any further?

Well, you could have a priest compare this event to a kidnapping.

http://www.wftv.com/news/16798008/detail.html

** "It is hurtful," said Father Migeul Gonzalez with the Diocese. "Imagine if they kidnapped somebody and you make a plea for that individual to please return that loved one to the family."

Gonzalez said the Diocese is willing to meet with Cook and help him understand the importance of the Eucharist in hopes of him returning it. The Diocese is dispatching a nun to UCF's campus to oversee the next mass, protect the Eucharist and in hopes Cook will return it.**

I like the idea of sending a scary nun to guard the ceremony at the next mass. But even better…let's send Webster Cook to hell!

** Gonzalez said intentionally abusing the Eucharist is classified as a mortal sin in the Catholic church, the most severe possible. If it's not returned, the community of faith will have to ask for forgiveness.

"We have to make acts of reparation," Gonzalez said. "The whole community is going to turn to prayer. We'll ask the Lord for pardon, forgiveness, peace, not only for the whole community affected by it, but also for [Cook], we offer prayers for him as well."**

Get some perspective, man. IT'S A CRACKER.

And of course, Bill Donohue is outraged (I know, Donohue is going to die of apoplexy someday when a gnat violates his oatmeal, so this isn't saying much).

http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1458

&& For a student to disrupt Mass by taking the Body of Christ hostage--regardless of the alleged nature of his grievance--is beyond hate speech. That is why the UCF administration needs to act swiftly and decisively in seeing that justice is done. All options should be on the table, including expulsion. &&

Would you believe that the mealy-mouthed president of the university, John Hitt, is avoiding defending his student is instead playing up the importance of the Catholic church to the university?

http://vivechristusrex2000.blogspot.com/2008/07/eucharist-desecration-at-ucf.html

Of course you would. That's what university presidents do. Bugger the students, keep the donors and the state reps happy.

Unfortunately, Webster Cook has now returned the cracker. Why?

"Webster just wants all of this to go away. Especially now that he feels his life is in danger."

That's right. Crazy Christian fanatics right here in our own country have been threatening to kill a young man over a cracker. This is insane. These people are demented @!$%#wits. And Cook is not out of the fire yet — that Fox News story ends with an open incitement to cause him further misery.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=912931E6387D06E86603288C86CA66A1?contentId=6932236&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

**University officials said, that as for right now, Webster Cook is not in trouble. If anyone or any group wants to file a formal complaint with the University through the student judicial system, they can. If that happens, Webster will go through a hearing either in front of an administrative panel or a panel of his peers.**

"Got that? If you don't like what Webster Cook did, all you have to do is complain to the university, and they will do the dirty work for you of making his college experience miserable. And don't assume the university would support Cook; the college is now having armed university police officers standing guard during mass."

http://www.wftv.com/news/16806050/detail.html?rss=orlc&psp=news

"I find this all utterly unbelievable. It's like Dark Age superstition and malice, all thriving with the endorsement of secular institutions here in 21st century America. It is a culture of deluded lunatics calling the shots and making human beings dance to their mythical bunkum.

So, what to do. I have an idea. Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers? There's no way I can personally get them — my local churches have stakes prepared for me, I'm sure — but if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I'll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare. I won't be tempted to hold it hostage (no, not even if I have a choice between returning the Eucharist and watching Bill Donohue kick the pope in the balls, which would apparently be a more humane act than desecrating a goddamned cracker), but will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web. I shall do so joyfully and with laughter in my heart. If you can smuggle some out from under the armed guards and grim nuns hovering over your local communion ceremony, just write to me and I'll send you my home address.

Just wait. Now there'll be a team of Jesuits assigned to rifle through my mail every day.""

[You know, I could have lots of fun with this subject via my art work! :D Cue modification of the 'Blazing Saddles' scene where the black sheriff ' Clevon Little' faces an all white lynch mob and puts his pistol to his head and acts like he's been taken hostage and the mob gets all sympathetic.

By the way, if a Christian is as mindless to say; "I'll pray for you" I look them in the eye and intone "I'll think for you". Then they get all upset all being insulted right back. :D And, yes, if needed I can metaphorically beat Christians over the head with their own holy tome! That gets them quite irate, too. I tell them; "Don't get mad at me. I didn't write the damned thing!" For some strange reason that gets them even more furious. [shrug] ]

Been there, buddy.

After multiple attempts to convert me, my self-appointed evangelical savior finally confronted me in the parking lot, announced that I was minion of Satan, then stabbed me with a knife.

I wonder if that counts as "crossing the line"?

I think that might just be crossing a line. YIKES.

You know, I don't care if you wish me a merry Christmas or happy holidays, but if you're going to preach at me, I have no use for you. I don't preach to others and tell them what to believe at work or outside of it. It's seriously rude, and in the workplace, hostile.

I keep my mouth shut, right up to the point that someone starts preaching to/at me, then I respond, and I'm not as nice as you about it. I dare anyone to defend the idea of living in a whale for three days to my face, that and about 20 other pieces of insanity and contradictions in their bible that I will throw back at them. Don't question my lack of religious beliefs unless you are prepared to question your own.

I'm an Atheist too, and I can tell you that if the guy with the lawsuit came at me with his religious arguments, he would have quit on his own.

I wish you could have caught the "good christians" that damaged your car, they should be forced to pay for their crime. I hope you have better luck in the future.

Thank you, MacGyver. I am pretty sure I know which of the "good Christians" keyed my car, but I had no proof. And again, taking action would have delayed my wedding and my transatlantic move. I had enough evidence against others for other attacks, but I was leaving anyway. This just made me leave a month earlier than planned. Good riddance to them. I don't work these days because I don't have to, but I am definitely hardened from this experience, and a bit more fierce in defending my rights and the rights of others to be left alone when it comes to religion.

I have no patience for preaching. I am much the same as you. I find it interesting that at one time, the New World held the promise of true religious freedom, but it took moving to Europe to see it truly in practice.

I feel the same way, I live in Germany now (well work here), it's amazing how the tables have flipped in the span of 30 years. Here, they have all these really old beautiful churches, but most of the people are atheists (or saving-face religious). The people I talk to remark at the craziness of the Americans now in regards to healthcare and women's rights. It worries me some of the things the far-right are doing and saying nowadays, it's nice to know it worries the rest of the world too. I'm not alone.

LOL, MacGyver, isn't it weird how it really has changed? When I first came to the UK, it was assumed that I was a religious fanatic just because I am American, and my husband's friends were really reluctant to have the types of discussions that normally have in the pub, which sometimes gets into friendly debate (yes, it happens! YAY!). I don't even remember how it came up, but when my husband mentioned that he would have never married anyone religious, they finally got comfortable around me - and this includes the religious friends we have because they are not on the level of fanaticism so common in the US. No one is disrespectful that I have seen, and I love that. The art of friendly debate is lost in America, and that's sad.

And over here, there is a bit of a fear of American right wing politics. No one trusts it, and with good reason. This coming from someone who has always been non-affiliated and follows her own political views, and not any party's.

I also love Germany. Spent a bit of time over there a couple years ago with my stepmom and her family and just fell in love with the place.

I'm Jewish. At least they aren't throwing bombs at you, shooting at you or harassing your child to tears like they do to my people (and that's IN THE U.S.!).

My son lives in Germany, and everything you say is true, MacGyver.

The Europeans are shaking their heads in disbelief at our ridiculous obsession with religion.

I'm Jewish. At least they aren't throwing bombs at you, shooting at you or harassing your child to tears like they do to my people (and that's IN THE U.S.!).

uhhhh, thats because of religion that those things are happening. Some how a religion was "given" a country another people had claims to of a different religion. Imagine for a second you all realized that santa claus wasn't real....why would you fight over a desert piece of crap land like Israel?

Europe knows all to well how evil religion can be from the inquisition to the crusades and the murderous popes. They have at least 800 years of history on the US and we ignore that to our own peril. America is determined to experience its own "dark ages" and we are heading there with idiotic nonsense. The right wing in this nation are determined to outdo their Islamic counterparts at who's religion is closer to some "god". America has never been a christian nation and never will be but there are those under the delusion that America was founded on christian values to which I point them to the Treaty Of Tripoli and learn for themselves.

Macgyver ........I was in Germany for 4 years and loved the people, I would never move there though, the taxes and nanny state is just too much. Why would it be assumed that a conservative politics means religious zeal? I am atheist and believe in abortion (if a citizen is on welfare it should be mandatory!). The biggest danger to citzen freedom and everything the Republic was founded to secure are the leanings today of the left agenda and its entitlement mentality and what Europe is admitting were an economic and society mistake. On the side of the coin there is also lunacy on the right with regards to religion fervor I thought was left behind multiple decades ago. What it ammounts to is both sides of the political spectrum has gone to extreme, I am not si much extreme right as extremely against the lunatic self-destructive left agenda.

Fundalmentalists often decry how the church is being "persecuted". That is total B.S. In fact, the Republicans are using that type of B.S. right now to solicit votes, screaming about "religious freedom".

As an agnostic living in the Bilble Belt I learned very quickly not to ever let this information be known by anyone other than close friends. If not, I faced the worst type of judgmental shaming. If anyone asks about my religious beliefs, I change the subject.

My last job, however, two evangelicals would blabber on and on. One of them actually left a PLASTIC FETUS on my desk one day. I am a peaceful person, but that day I politely told her off. This woman did nothing but try to manipulate money from area churches. The other one, a young married man was finally fired for insisting his clients go to church with him and at the end HAVING AN AFFAIR WITH A TEENAGE CLIENT.

To say the least, our office workers were thrilled when both of these people were gone.

I had the same experience as you did Sara M. I lived in the bible belt and did my best to just not participate in work conversations about religion. But so many of my co-workers went to church and to the same one. They would often ask me to go with them. I finally blurted out one day that I don't attend church and after that I noticed I was often ostracized. OMG...a heathen in our midst!

So sad that people fail to understand that the constitution does grant you the right to practice whatever religion you want...but it carries the responsibility to recognize that others have the same right. Most evangelical religions truly believe they can go to hell if they have not worked hard enough at "converting" others to their faith. Ugh.

I'm sorry for that but you equate things ethnic with things religious and at times your people are very demanding. If you had been in the US in the 1700's there would not have been a christmas tree in sight. They came into this country with the heavy immigration from Germany in the 1800's. And for people of german ancestory they predate christianity. So if you will be a little more cognizant of others ethnic heritage then things can be worked out between us. Religion has a place but not forced by either side you complain about the actions of these people but if you want to tar every christian with the same brush then you have to accept the responsibility for atheists who go to court to gag a student from speaking and then never even show up at the event at which they were supposed to be protected from a phrase like "may we please have a moment of silence" Maybe we will find a centerpoint but it will not happen as long as both sides are trying to control the other with laws.

For those that say keep religion out of the work place what do you mean. For many who are religious, it's not simply going to church and reading the bible. Religion is a way of life; It defines who you are, your personality.

Well from US history right after they kill you they will come after this Catholic its like a vacation to be considered christian for awhile. In fact in my grandparents generation there was this political party called the know nothing party whose platform basically was eliminating Catholics. If you read the KKK statements of belief right after they eliminate the blacks your next and after that I'm next. I'm only christian in their eyes when they feel threatened.

Yup, most born-agains and evangelicals get their jobs through their religious connections, so they'll be more than happy to have yours to reference out! My theory is that those religious workplaces have the least productive employees because of the unfair competition which comes through religious preferences in hiring.

I am not si much extreme right as extremely against the lunatic self-destructive left agenda.

And I'm not so much extreme left as extremely against the lunatic self-destructive right agenda.

If paying more in taxes, which go to entitlements, means that I am free from the Christian taliban forcing their views on me... that my gf is free from some right-wing f***-tard telling her what to do with her own body... that everyone is free to love whoever they want... that women are free to get the healthcare they need... that I am free from some Republican piece of s*** telling me what I can do in my own bedroom... then I will gladly pay more in taxes.

I guess that is what it comes down to. You believe the left will take us into a European, self-destructive nanny state... I believe the right will take us into a Middle Eastern, self-destructive fascist theocracy run by religious doctrine.

I don't know about you, but I will take any European country over a Middle Eastern county, any day of the week.

rkb -- I don't really care what you or anyone else believes. Be as religious as you want to be on your own time and in private. The problem arises when you expect me to join you, and you punish me if I don't, and especially if this comes up in the workplace.

What gives anyone the right to harass a co-worker? That's not about freedom of religion. That's about minding your own business!

rkb ...

What *I* mean when I say keep the religion out of the workplace is very simple ... don't impose it upon others! If you are asked, respond. If you are not asked, then don't bring it up. If you ask someone to church, and they say no ... don't push, don't ask why (it's none of your business) and simply accept the "no". If someone has a different belief than you, remember it's JUST AS VALID as your own. Have the courtesy to respect that.

I suspect, if you had totally private polls, with NO possibility of finding out who said what ... you'd find out at least half, if not more, people are NOT evangelical Christian. But they are the silent majority. Wow -- sounds familiar, doesn't it?

uhhhh, thats because of religion that those things are happening ---YEA, YOUR religion! I don't attack people cause they are Christians.

Israel was our land while everyone else was praying to rocks, the only place a Jew could be safe. (LOL) No one else was volunteering to take us in. As far as if our religion is correct, you'll find out soon enough. BTW, thanks for the NON-APOLOGY.

The biggest danger to citzen freedom and everything the Republic was founded to secure are the leanings today of the left agenda and its entitlement mentality and what Europe is admitting were an economic and society mistake. On the side of the coin there is also lunacy on the right with regards to religion fervor I thought was left behind multiple decades ago. What it ammounts to is both sides of the political spectrum has gone to extreme, I am not si much extreme right as extremely against the lunatic self-destructive left agenda.

I agree - Left agenda, Right agenda, way too much political baggage. I HATE all politicians, GOP and Dems alike. The USA's only hope is a third party, preferably a MOR, common-sense party. I had hopes that the TEA party or OWS would develop into an alternative, but they both got co-opted by the BIG TWO. Yeah, this is off-subject, sorry.

He should have been fired. If the other employees are complaining he went to far. If I am your employer you better leave your apostatizing at the door or I'll show it to you. I worked with a jerk like that. He kept sending me religious E-mails. Even after I asked him not to. Until I forwarded one to Human Resources with my complaint. On top of the E-mail harassment he was one of the laziest people I have ever had the displeasure of working with.

Your religion is like your sex parts, I assume you have them but dont want to see them. If you want to play with them, take them home and do it in PRIVATE. And for YOUR sake, dont try to jam them down my throat or its gonna get ugly!!!

So, to marry two unrelated topics...is it OK to discuss religion in the locker room at the gym? :-)

http://todayhealth.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/20/10763064-why-women-avoid-the-gym-getting-naked

B. Chester! TOO FUNNY!!

And Will, last time I checked, I wasn't getting paid to go to the gym, so I guess I am free to talk about what ever I'd like, assuming the person I'm speaking to wishes to discuss the subject!

I doubt I could get fired for it, regardless.....

If the holiday party is during working hours, then "Happy Holidays" it is. However, if you're not being paid to attend the party, "Merry Christmas."

It was after working hours. Even then I certainly didn't say 'Merry Christmas'.

Sorry to read about your problem. You are caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place. Your employer is presumably paying for the party, but they are not paying you to be there. I think you have a common obligation not to be offensive, but an occasional 'slip of the tongue' with a "Merry Christmas" here or there should not be a problem. If it is, they are real jerks. I'm not even Christian and yet on Christmas Eve I would wish people that I thought to be Christian to have a "Merry Christmas". I don't mind if they wish me the same. It is much better than "die in hell you heathen". ;-) Be of good cheer, hopefully in a bunch of years you can retire and thumb your nose at them.

The tyranny of the minority. 79% of people in the US claim Christianity as their religion. The 21% claim that saying "Merry Christmas" at a party is offensive and insensitive because we are not all Christians. Is it not offensive and insensitive to insist that the vast majority bow to the will of the minority? Most of us say "Merry Christmas" much like we say "how are you", "good morning" or "god bless you" to a sneeze. When did we all become so hypersensitive and intolerant of absolutely everything?

The fact is, most non-religious people don't care if you say "Merry Christmas", so long as it doesn't go beyond that. It carries as much meaning as "Good morning". I celebrate the holiday with my family without the religious overtones, and haven't even put up a tree in my house since I moved out of my mother's. Christmas, to me and my husband, means eating the things we normally don't, drinking more than we usually would, and exchanging gifts because we like to see the faces of our family light up when they receive something they like. I don't care what anyone calls it - to me, Christmas is shorthand for a big family piss up.

It's when that majority tries to force the religious aspect of the holiday on others, and insists on preaching, that it's offensive. My own mother doesn't ask me to go to midnight mass, nor does she shove Jesus down my throat. She knows better than to disrespect my beliefs that way. I don't shove being an atheist down her throat out of respect. Other people should show the same courtesy and mind their own lives.

Is it not offensive and insensitive to insist that the vast majority bow to the will of the minority?

The idea of anyone bowing to anyone is offensive. Majority or minority, there should be mutual respect.

We had a very nice Christian lady at our party. She'd 'Merry Christmas' you and made it feel good with things like it was her heartfelt wish that no matter what faith you were, she wished you and yours only the best for the season in the best way she knew how. She also welcomed & treasured your faiths greetings and blessings because it was a personal well-wishing between friends. It was all like getting a hug from your Grandmother.

Some people can do it right.

@joemike, 50% believe in aliens too, you point being. 60% believe in ghosts. Just because your "belief" is religious it is somehow is more believable?

There are plenty of times where 100% of the people are wrong, just because they all "believed" they were right, didn't make it any more a reality.

Delusional is delusional, be it 78% or just that one guy that says he talks to jesus on the bus.

But I also say Happy Dawali to my friends who are Hindu when the Festival of Lights approches, Eid Mubarak to my Muslim friends at the end of Ramadan and Happy Hanukkah to my Jewish friends during Haunkkah. I say Merry Christmas to a person who I know is Christian and Happy Holidays to everyone else. So, strangers get Happy Holiday. Of course, if you say Merry Christmas to me, I will probably respond in kind. It only takes a few brain cells and a little common decency to get this right.

JoeMike: "The tyranny of the minority"? You've got it backwards. "Everyone thinks democracy is all about 'majority rules' ... enacting the wishes of the majority. But it's not. It's actually about protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority. Protecting individual rights is at the heart of a democracy ... not ensuring that everyone has to do what 'most' people consider the right thing."

Religious zealots are terrified that science and reason are replacing their unsupported fantasies. "In an increasing number of countries, religion has a major problem on its hands — the majority of citizens are no longer ignorant and uneducated. Science and reason has replaced religion and faith. The battles have been fought, the war is over and religion has lost. Their power gone, they can no longer force our obedience. Having their primitive stories exposed as fictions mean they can no longer even persuade us to follow them willingly. Yet religion refuses to surrender. It struggles on mortally wounded, gasping and wheezing, attacking when cornered with the only weapons it has left: denial and isolation."

The more you talk about religious nonsense, the less intelligent I think you are -- so it's best to keep your fairy tales to yourself.

WOW, someone who actually knows the constitution, bully for you. Sadly American seems to be working its way backwards as is the middle east. We ignore Europe at our own peril. They have at least 1000 years of history on us and have been through it all, from the inquisition to the crusades and the murderous popes. Its no wonder Europe is more secularist these days, I don't think they are less religious I think they know how dangerous religion can be in the public square when those that are completely engulf in religious dogma are in charge.

I consider myself an agnostic, and cannot stand people pushing their religious beliefs on me.

But I don't understand the big debate over the use of "Merry Christmas".

The term has been around forever, in almost every language. Why is it suddenly offensive?

If someone wishes me a Merry Christmas I simply reply "Merry Christmas to you, too." Is that so difficult?

It only takes a few brain cells and a little common decency to get this right.

Exactly. I think both sides can be very guilty of excess on this issue. Non-believers don't have to take it personally if someone celebrates a religious holiday. Believers need to get off the high horse and recognize that others' rights are as significant as their own.

If you're looking for a fight you'll probably find one. Grownups know when to let... it.... go.

and haven't even put up a tree in my house

Oh I am an atheist for sure, but always put up a tree, why? Mostly because the bible calls christmas trees HEATHEN and should NOT be used. So every christian that puts up a tree is violating the bible

Jeremiah 10:2KJV Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3* For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4* They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Just saying....

And I also say "Happy Solstice" to anyone who says Merry christmas, the looks on their faces is awesome

MacGyver and ttmadison, perhaps you should explore the causes for your intense anger and dislike for anyone daring to offer an opinion you don't agree with. tt - you really have absolutely no idea what religion is about at all do you? So sad. I pretty sure I was talking about group behavior in a democracy and didn't cite one single religious belief. I am neither delusional nor unintelligent but tt is totally out of touch with reality.

You need to think about it a bit. Any function at work has to consider and take into account all its employees and the fact customers may be present at any time. Guess what, there are employees/customers who have different belief systems, or even no belief system! There is at least one person at every work site on every shift who just cant keep his personal beliefs to themselves and is annoying to everyone around them and has a disruptive presence. They should be restrained. I also believe traditions like christmas parties at work and easter vacation at schools have a place, but an employee who just wont shut up about "the good news" is just as annoying as the employee who just has to kneel on a rug 5 times a day to bow to a rock located in the mid-east.

LOL, We the corporation,

Good point, but ultimately, it's a matter of practicality for me. I never saw the reason to drag a big ol' tree into my house so that it can be littered with pine needles and peed on by my dogs (not that they pee indoors, but that's just asking for it). Also, because I am probably the worst cook in the free world, we generally do Christmas elsewhere, so there's just no point in having the tree anyway. Because it's pretty meaningless to me anyway, I have just never bothered.

At work once, a retail store, I was buying non-religious cards and religious cards in December. Our personel manager asked my why so I told her to my religious friends I send the religious ones and to my non-christian friends I send the winter scene type because I have Jewish and pagan friends too. We are all celebrating something at that time of year so I wish them a happy season too. BTW the pagan ones use the tree too. One rabbi asked me about the tree one time because his mentally disadvantaged son wanted one I told him if that was me I'd buy the tree decorate it with Jewish symbols and call it a Hannukah tree. The tree is only a tree until you make it what you want He had one in the window the next day when I was coming home from college I did explain the christian symbolism for the tree he found nothing at odds with his faith.

If you're putting up a Christmas tree simply because the Bible says they're heathen, the I think the look on the faces of Christians you tell that to would be priceless. I sure laughed when I read it! What the Bible is talking about in that verse is idolatry, not Christmas trees. And Jeremiah is in the Old Testament, not the New Testament (in case you missed it, that's the part that contains Christ's teachings that Christians are supposed to go by). No Christian is violating the Bible by putting up a Christmas tree unless they're worshiping the stupid thing. Had to laugh. . . all that expense, fuss and bother just to make an in-your-face point based on something you've mis-interpreted to begin with.

More importantly, you obviously don't like proselytizing Christians (or maybe even the non-proselytizing kind) getting in your face and disrespecting your rights to your beliefs. I get that. But responding with "Happy Solstice" just to disconcert someone is childish and in its own way, disrespectful. You're mocking someone who probably wanted to do nothing more than be pleasant in the holiday season. So you're fanning the flames and doing the same thing you accuse Christians of doing -- showing a lack of respect. Gotta wonder about someone who tries to get respect by not showing it to others.

The original leader of all Christians had something to say that seems germane:

"What you do unto the least of my brethren you do unto me."

Since there weren't any Christians at that time, I'm fairly sure that treating others fairly and respectfully was the gist.

IMO, the message of Christ -- as portrayed through is words from the New Testament, has been corrupted over the intervening millenia by venal humans who invented a bureaucracy and a set of beliefs that have nothing to do with Jesus so far as I can tell.

I don't care what religion you are just don't try and push it down my throat and I won't push mine down yours. Merry Christmas is a greeting and I have no problem saying Merry Christmas back no big deal. If they say Happy Holidays I answer in kind, what is the big deal about.

People, really...there's a big difference between saying "Merry Christmas" at an office party and trying to give someone a DVD on Intelligent Design! Lighten up already!

If your biggest problem at work is the party in December is called a Holiday Party instead of a Christmas Party STFU. If I was your boss and you brought that childish compalint to me I would say fine next year no party just keep working. The same goes if the Christmas Party being called a Holiday Party. A lot of childish BS over somone actually born in June. AND I WOULD TELL ALL THE EMPLOYEES YOU WERE THE REASON THE PARTY WAS CANCELLED.

ttmadison....that is the most EXCELLENT post I've read all day. It is 100% the absolute truth. It's a shame that the brainwashed masses cannot see that they are truly indeed VICTIMS of a cruel hoax which keeps them bound w/the shackles of ignorance and superstition. Thankfully more and more people are questioning the insanity of their "beliefs' and are coming to the side of reason and logic. One day we'll be free from the myths that keep mankind from reaching it's true potential and that keep us divided via war, hate, bigotry, etc. How they can't see things as clear as we do is a mystery I'll never understand. I guess education, intelligence and freedom from being deluged and indoctrinated w/such nonsense on a constant basis has something to do w/it. Some of us were lucky enough to grow up w/o having our minds polluted so we couldn't think for ourselves.

Agreed. Imagine talking about being free of choice or anti-abortion at work?

Unfortunately, we have lost the ability to disagree without being disagreeable. This is especially true of religion and politics.

These days, religion and politics are almost the same thing.

@snickerdoodle , that is the most accurate statement yet.

Discussions about the Philadelphia Eagles/Phillies/Flyers/76ers often end in arguments too. Anything someone tends to be deeply passionate about tends to end up in heated debates. Of course, no one has ever been fired for called Donovan McNabb a (bleep)ing idiot.

They may not have been told that was the reason for their firing, but I'd bet at least one person was fired for just that sort of reason. Perhaps it wasn't about McNabb, but maybe about Manning, or Paterno, or Mayor Bloomberg.

actually, snickerdoodle, it goes back pretty far

my dad worked for a major oil company in the midwest and in the late 60's a memo was sent out to all employees stating to refrain from all discussion of the vietnam war due to altercation then

in 1856 senator Charles Sumner was severally beaten with a cane by preston brooks on the senate floor after giving a speech on slavery

so the inability to have civialized discussions goes back a ways

Mymom: and of course, anyone who truly does not believe that God is on the side of Notre Dame is a heretic who deserves to be burned at the steak,

or at least served the burned bratwurst. :D

Alan that could end up in a fistfight dirp101 sorry but Notre Dame is the only college I know of that has an alumni club made up of people who never went there. You can find it easily if you live in the tri-state area. Wi,Il and In the tri-state has to do with I 90-94. Down here it is the Texans or the Cowboys and do not bring up Tony Romo.

dirp101 Loved your pun - steak or bratwurst, what a choice! But how about the vegetarians??? However, I do have another more serious comment for you, will post after I've read all posts.

No I want my daily dose of political and religious debates everyday at work. The drama is addictive, keeps my world turnning. I want fist fights and cat fights at the water cooler and gatling staple guns shooting across my cubicle. Everyone should display their little religious ornaments on every possible holidays known to men. I want the hunter guy to mount his 6x6 antlers in his office, and the anti-abortion guy to plaster his walls with mutilated pictures of unborn fetuses.

What have this world come to when we can't even do all of those things at work? I can't even smoke a cigarette without someone telling me I'm gonna die.

I can't even smoke a cigarette without someone telling me I'm gonna die.

Well that is because you are going to die but then so is everyone else.

Death is the completion of a life and the only difference that stands out among individuals is the length of that life and the condition of the body at the end. So puff away like a chimney just don't blow the smoke my way or force me to breath it.

Why do people feel they have the right to harrass a perfect stranger because he is smoking?
As long as he is not blowing smoke at you, MYOB.

VEGETARIANS!!! if it dont run, walk, creep, crawl, hop, jump, swim, or fly, it AINT food!!!

Dale the hispanics at my company wanted May 1st off for some immigration rally. The company said no so they said they weren't coming to work and would all take their floating holiday. since they were 50% of the workforce the company closed the plant that day and made all the employees take May 1st as a floating holiday. You want anger most of the rest of us had other plans for using that day. We weren't given a choice.

Oh for pete's sake! Another hard-done-by whiner.

His religion did not get him fired. His mouth did.

BigJon, I understand your situation. I've encountered a number of bible thumpers over the years. For some reason telling them you are either not religious or an Agnostic is more of a green light to them than saying you are Atheist. To them, you appear to be fertile ground.

The best training I ever got on how to deal with them came from a training on how to deal with the media. You should respond, but you should not attempt to answer. There is a critical difference between responding and answering. Answering requires you to listen to what they say and that gives them the power to direct the conversation. You should have a set of statements ready for your conversations and stick to them. They are the messages that you will use in your responses.

Good luck, hang in there, retirement will come.

Yes--it is good to have set answers. My daughter tells me to "smile and nod" and think about something else entirely (like what you want for dinner or that presentation you are about to give).

Here are some others:

That's very interesting [with a downward inflection on the last word]--what do you think about [change to topic to something that is relevant to work]

Thanks for sharing [with neutral inflection]--but I really have to [mention some other task that is relevant to work]

Okay--oh, I just remembered that I need to [mention some other task that is relevant to work]

I see--gosh, you'll have to excuse me, I have [some other task to do that is relevant to work]

I find that the best thing to tell a supervisor is that Person X is given to gossip and random chatting--and while it is nice of him/her to share, and I understand that s/he means to be friendly, that it is taking up time I need to be able to get my tasks done on time. One can sometimes ask to be moved so that you can have a quieter spot, away from distractions.

This works for religion, politics, and sports (sports being a religion where I live, that's possibly kind of redundant). Does anyone else have a good deflection? I could use some more.

Well I won't preach but if your group invites us we will come with our bottomless coffeepot and lay out our bibles and tracts on the table for you to pick up if you want Including the coin with the 800 number for roadside rescue on a volunteer basis. If you ASK we will pray with you or talk with you. We fly our colors( wear our vests) in 1% biker rallies and never have a problem in fact they usually say you will come next time right when we leave. We are there visibly but not pushy about it.

Q: Do you believe in the Bible as the absolute word of God?
A: Which one?

Q: Do you believe that God created man?
A: Actually, I prefer to believe that he's all powerful and all knowing.

Q: Are you a Christian?
A: I especially like the Golden Rule!

Q: Have you been saved?
A: Several times!

Q: Do you believe that we're all born sinners?
A: Yep, clearly I'm being punished.

Q: Do you go to church?
A: No, I prefer to do what Jesus did.

"We'll pray for you." "Oh good, my lottery numbers are----"

"Jesus saves!" "I do, too, about every other sentence on my computer. You just never know when the power will go off."

Q: Don't you want your kids to go to heaven? A: Not until after their dead.

Q: Wouldn't you like to have a wonderful Christian man for dinner? A: No thanks, I already have two in the freezer.

Q: Aren't you afraid you're going to die? A: Why? We all die. None of us is getting off this planet alive. (Then again, I don't work for NASA! I guess the guy who this article is about doesn't anymore either. LOL)

When somebody says to me, "I'll pray for you", I say "Good. You need the practice and I need the help". Shuts them up every time.

As soon as you mention you're an atheist to an Evangelical Christian you're going to hear all about Jesus and the bible. I've now learned so much about the bible and Jesus that I can pretend to be "saved." Technically I have been saved. Saved from hearing yet more of that blathering religious BS.

I just tell them that I am glad they are as happy in their spiritual practices and beliefs as I am, and I really need to get back to work now.

Sometimes I tell them I am Native American (1/32)) and follow our traditions. That usually does it. Sometimes for fun I tell them I am a Zoroastrian - they never know what that means. (There are about 200,000 still practicing on the planet and they are very nice people. If they look it up it scares the bejeebers out of them because it originated in Iran). Other times I tell them I am a very devout Buddist or a Druid. The atheism thing always seems to set them off and as an agnostic all religions are pretty much interchangeable. The core of all them (stripping away the dogma) seems to be loving kindness. Not something I see a whole lot of from the Evangelicals, I'm afraid.

I'm basically an atheist but you just can't use that word. Use ANYTHING but and you don't get the nasty reaction. I say I'm a Humanist / Universalist / Freethinker / Pastafarian / Pantheist , etc. Most of them are too ignorant to know what any of these are or if they're even religions. Leave them baffled but never acknowledge that there is any kind of "higher power" than nature and the universe. Even if there WERE some kind of "creator"... I'm pretty certain he/she/it is not some narcissistic, vain, megalomaniac on a power trip who threatens, punishes or expects / demands any kind of acknowledgement, obeyance, reverence or worship. That is the MYTH created by man to assume power and control over the fearful and ignorant.

You know... as I read these.. Hypocrite comes to mind. Some you have some valid reasons to come to the conclusion you've drawn... speaking from the article... That is rare and he clearly violated normal workplace rules... (and ethics). However, as "that guy" who is "religious" in a work place of non believers... I here them "preach" the cursing, their "conquests" the latest "gossip".... I' tell corny, clean jokes as long as I listen to the "dirt". I listen to the country, rock, slash, pop... all day long and "my" christian music for "30 min" (if I'm fortunate) a week. I freely talk about my faith and witness to them.. I'm careful to do it respectfully but I do it. Some of you are just "intolerant" under the guise of tolerance. So far the most intolerant people I met... are on this forum.

Same goes for pushy atheists and believe me there are some and I'm tired of being called ignorant and backwards to my face.

lonereb, by the same token, atheists are no doubt tired of being told they will burn in hell, to their faces.

This problem with religion in the work place is old and seems to never go away. I worked in an insurance company about 50 years ago in Boston,Mass. I am from the south, Protestant and the mostly Catholic women who worked with me like to mock me and my accent. They decided I was at fault for the problem with white and blacks relations in the south and regularly remarked about all that stuff. They knew nothing about me or my ideas on all that, because I did not discuss those thing at work.I think the worst was one Friday I was minding my own business in the crowded lunch room , eating a ham sandwich when this woman walked up to me and in a loud voice reminded me that I was sinning by eating meat on Friday. I guess I started to get tears in my eyes and figured before I caused a real problem, I got the rest of my sandwich and walked out to the Common to finish my lunch.

I never discussed religion at work, I was too busy trying to do my job as described by my employer. Yes there are ''Bible thumper'' as you call them,but they come in all colors, Catholic, Protestant, LDS and other self described ''out to save the world kind''but to day it just rolls off my back. I prefer to keep to my self my beliefs and prayers.

NASA shouldn't employ anyone who "believes" anything. This is rocket science...proof...proof...proof.

Well without my mother and her friends Mercury,Gemini and Apollo would never have gotten off the ground. Those toggle switches really came in handy all assembled with tweezers mostly by religious Poles and Germans.

Assembling toggle switches doesn't actually require a lot of faith. Now if you're calculating orbital vectors and believe that things fall to the ground because "God wants them to..."

From one native Floridian to another, bravo.

Give me a break. What do you care what other people believe? This isn't about someone says "God Bless You" and being dismissed, this is about someone who admittedly harassed his fellow employees. And what agenda are you referring to? The agenda of wanting equal rights? How dastardly. You can hate all you want, but the government is being asked not to legally condone it. Put on your adult britches and deal with the fact that other people live here , too.

The only "agenda" being "forced" on you, LR, is restoring constitutionality.

One time I had some doorknockers come up to me while I was working on my truck. They started on their religious crap and I told them to leave because I am an atheist. One of them was startled and said "Well what do you think is going to happen?" I told her, "What's going to happen is you're going walk back to your car and drive away, and I'm going to get back to work."

Guess who was right?

My Lab is very sweet, she is also a big doggie. I greet the JWs at the door holding my dog's collar. They stay off the porch and leave quickly. Good doggie!

mikki----i too have jehovah witnesses at my door on a regular basis. i have come up with a greeting that stops them cold. after politely greeting them i announce----nice of you to come but i don't discuss religion. they thank me and leave. nothing unpleasant. --works for me!

I have a sign in my window NO SOLICITING I HAVE A RELIGION I DON'T WANT YOURS. That by the way goes for atheists too. On Holy Saturday there were 8 adults in my apartment complex and 16 people knocking on doors I felt like Travis at the Alamo. The mormons are just as bad they will argue until the world ends if you let them. Another fast way to get rid of them is my son in the army is home. Mikki that never worked for me they want to convert me and blame me for the inquisition. BTW I come from a country that never had an inquisition.

I once had a couple of Jehovah's witnesses come to my door. At first they were hard to send away, but then I remembered Leviticus 11:20-23. I asked them if they believed everything in the bible was true. The answer, of course, was an emphatic yes. Then I asked them why grasshoppers and locusts were called quadrupeds (four legged) in the bible. I then pulled out my bible and showed them the passage. There was confusion and they left saying they would be back with an answer. That was 40 years ago, I haven't seen them since.

Confront them, the door knockers are naive and not really knowledgeable of the bible. Memorize a few choice passages; at least it will be entertaining. It was for me.

Leviticus 11:

20 - All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.

21 - Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;

22 - Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.

23 - But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.

I simply tell them I will listen to their spiel, on one condition.
They have to first kneel down and recite the Rosary with me.

I tell them I'm a Satanist (not true). Boy, do they ever run!

Ahhh, the office prayer. Nothing is more uncomfortable than being in a room of delusional people talking to an imaginary friend and pretending to play along.

Because if you don't, they may try to kill you and eat your brains (or fire/convert you, just as bad really).

I say "bless you" at work when people sneeze, and I'm actually an atheist-leaning agnostic. It's just out of habit, really. I hope the people at work didn't think I was trying to force anything on them! It's basically just my way of saying, "I care about your physical health and have acknowledged that you might not be feeling well."

Big difference between "bless you" after sneezing, or even "merry Christmas" during the holidays, and "god bless you" as part of everyday speech.

Secondly, most of us aren't even updet by being told something like that... it's the mandatory participation that gets under my skin.

We had a pot luck recently. As we were getting ready to eat someone's wife blurted out, "Can we say grace?". My boss says, "Sure, just keep it to yourself". Lots of people gained even more respect for her after that.

I worked for a religiously oriented company that had on staff chaplians for every group in the company. The buddhists didn't send any so the SE Asian Christian church handled their problems. The chaplians helped with forms they didn't understand and checking the production floor to make sure their people weren't having problems that were ethnic in orientation. And when my Catholic mother took a turn for the worse while I was at work All three chaplins showed up at the hospital not at the same time and just for me but also they prayed with my mother at her request. The hallway looked like an ecumenical meeting when moms priest and the Methodist miniter met If all of the religiously oriented companies kept religion within bounds there wouldn't be a problem. It should be at the employees request not forced.

Whenever someone says "God bless you," I give them a great big smile and say, "Why thank you, She most certainly does!"

I make it a point to always say Geshundheit whenever anyone sneezes ( I live smack dab in the middle of Biblebanger country ). I think it's hilarious when they are fully expecting a "God Bless You' and get this response instead :) I always find it hilarious to swear in the line at the grocery check out too... ie " Goddammit... I forgot my coupons !" If looks could kill.... LMAO. I'm so sick of these self-righteous hypocrites I could just vomit.

Same kind of thing happens at Daytona State College, the management is loverloaded with religious whackjobs.

That is the reason the Catholic Council of Bishops sided with the atheists in 1954 over prayer in school. It was definitly sided towards one denomination with an overload of teachers and administrators who were pushing their personel brand of religion.BTW the only reason they aren't calling me the son of satan is they are too busy calling Obama that. I think if you want to say grace say it to yourself but if anybody sniggers at me for it you are no better than the ones you complain about. Just because most of you don't do that doesn't mean all of you don't do that.

I agree. Preach to me once, I'll say no thanks and move on. Preach to me a second time, I'll consider it grounds for a fist fight.

Call me ignorant to my face for saying grace and I'll give you that fistfight. I'm getting really tired of that behavior too.

EXACTLY.

Spoken like a person heading straight to hell.

Exactly as long as you acknowledge that atheism pushed is also a cult. If I make the sign of the cross and quietly pray it is not an invitation for you to come and push atheism at me. Or to blame me for the crusades or the inquisition. One my nation never had an inquisition and two the crusades were before I was born and I'm not responsible for the actions of every freaking christian you don't like. If you want to trade atrocities I have a BA in history and we can go at it starting with the Moorish invasion of Spain. But not at work or in a restaurant when I am eating.

Atheism is a religion in the same way that "not collecting stamps" is a hobby.

Toasty, that was great, a real classic! Well said, er- written. :-)

Atheism is a point of view and a belief. I am deeply agnostic (borderline atheist) but I would never put anyone down for something that brings them joy as long as they are not harming others. I draw the line when they harass me with those beliefs or use them to create laws that deprive me of my rights.

Atheism is NOT a belief... it is a LACK of belief. You can't become an atheist until you can comprehend what atheism actually is. Atheists are not a religion, a group, it is not a belief, it has no dogma, no tenets nothing.... the ONLY thing one atheist has in common with another atheist is a LACk OF BELIEF in gods. PERIOD.

I hate it when people try and claim that atheism is some sort of religion. Toasty and Beware... really put it best. I think that people who like to call it a religion only do so in order to be demeaning, because they feel threatened by the fact that we are becoming more vocal about not having religion shoved down our throats. The religious bigots also hate to see a happy atheist because they want to believe so badly that it's impossible to be happy or moral without a god.

I have never known a group of atheists to sit around on a weekly basis getting preached at about being strong in our non-belief, and would not associate with them if they existed. The only reason we band together on religious issues is because we have a common goal in protecting our rights, which have long been abused by the religious. That does not a religion make. I know plenty of atheists, and we don't sit around talking about how we don't believe in a god. We also socialize with religious people that aren't jerks about their religion, which is more than can be said about the type of religious person that keeps themselves apart from anyone that doesn't think exactly as they do.

To say that atheism is a religion, is like saying that abstinence is a sexual position - Bill Maher (paraphrased).

You need help... and anti-anxiety meds.

Bill S needs more than anti-anxiety meds. He needs to take his meds for paranoid schizophrenia.

They will make you more coherent, Bill, trust me.

Wait until the Islamic Fascists take over!

Dude, did you read the article....the Christian-facists are trying to take over RIGHT now. What are you going to do about that?

Well, "you" can just wait for the Islamic Fascists to take over, Bill. Egads, what's their plan, Bill? Think our President, Mr. Obama, that muslim, socialist, fascist, Kenyan, Barry whatever that name is (it's on some passport, according to the birthers, you know) no legitimate birth certificate either long or short form, no transcript, un-American, anti-Christ, only half-white alien is in charge of the take-over??? Did Trump or Palin tell you this? I'll bet they did.

Anyway on a more sensible note, I host a very large family Thanksgiving dinner every year, and my one rule is that there be no open discussions on politics or religion. That includes no blessings before we eat. If someone wants to bless the food, they can do so absent the spoken word. I'm agnostic and could care less whether there's a blessing or not, but found out later from others, that they did care.

Now, if I can make rules about my own home in such matters, then that should carry over into the workplace. No religious conversions, no Avon selling, nor Amway - heck, let's include Girl Scout cookies, and school candy sales. My husband was always bringing such crap home that I had to find someone else to give it to.

Thank whoever that I run a small business and am able to control such intrusions/distractions, because that's exactly what it is.

Yes, it's not just Islam that is the problem in this world, it is superstition/religion period. Religion and it's Zealots will be the downfall of mankind. I wish there were some way to end this mass psychosis that most of our species suffers from. But I don't see much hope for the future.

Bill, you sound like my freaky brother. Where do you get this stuff from? Fox News? It should be as simple as this, "No proselytizing during working hours", period.

Your post makes you look like a nut job. It is paranoid reasoning liike this that is turning America's clock back a millenium into the dark ages.

Actually babyboomer48 the birther movement was started by Clinton followers in the last election. So maybe you had better clean your own house before you try to clean someone elses.

lonereb, that may or may not be true (I sincerely don't know). However, you must admit that it got kicked into overdrive by the tea party/ultra right wing(nuts).

Amen -- Isn't this the whole premise of America -- Religious freedom with it or against it. Don't get in my face with your beliefs whether it may be hairy thunder or cosmic muffin. Keep it to your self and keep it out of the workplace.

The problem is, you can mention one word about God and some people call that being "all in my face." My neighbor is like that because someone talked to him on his porch last year. Only happened once, but he still talks about it as if it happens every single day, nonstop.

Timothy1 - if someone confronted you on your porch talking about the unicorn or the leprechaun that they worship, you would still be talking about it. God, leprechauns, werewolves...its all the same - not a shred of proof about any of them.

hairy thunder or cosmic muffin

A quote from the Deteriorata. I hadn't thought about that in years.

- worked with a woman who belonged to a church I never heard of that required her to leave every Friday afternoon- she had to be home by sunset. she finally transfer ed out of our department. Suddenly she was there every Friday after noon- she ran that scam for 2 years and got paid for it. I have always questioned religion at work= and after that incident- I know my thoughts were correct. In fact I question all religion