Right on the mark, XDm9mm.

Classic defeatist attitude.

It's always been dark at night, we don't need any darn artificial light, it's unnatural.

If men were meant to fly, they would have wings.

A horseless carriage! That's ridiculous!

Life is not fair, that is true. But life also used to be much shorter and much harder and man has done what we can to improve things. Some of us would like to continue the progress. Have fun in the dark ages.

Exactly XDm9mm - I was one of the unfortunate people that lost their job in 2010 due to the economy, but guess what...I worked my a$$ off to find a new (and better) job and now make 25% more at a job that I absolutely love. The jobs are out there, but employers are certainly a lot more discriminating in who they will hire these days because there is a much larger pool of candidates. I applied and interviewed for many jobs I didn't get, but that didn't stop me from working hard as a job seeker every.single.day. People absolutely need to take personal responsibility. I realize not every market is as flush with jobs as where I live, but sometimes you have to make sacrifices (move, take a lower paying job, try a different field, etc.) - too many people give up and just take their unemployment without making any effort to look for a job (Don't jump on me - I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but I've seen it in my own neighborhood). I shouldn't have to subsidize my lazy neighbor who would rather sit and collect unemployment than make any effort to get a job. Period.

The south has majority of the poor people in this country because they keep voting for a party (GOP) that has just no interest in them but big banks, CEOs, and the 1%ers.....

Life is a matter of individualism. You vote for a party that doesnt care fpr you and your family is plain stupid..

Doc, you are right on the money. I live in rural TX and it is very poor and very conservative. Most folks around here have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to politics, they just follow what the man at church or their boss tells them. Like those are the people looking out for the interests of poor people.

livinginthewoods...

Defeatist attitude?? Where did you see that in my post?

It's not defeatist to ask people to try to improve their own position is it? What is it about personal responsibility that you have the problem with? I'm not advocating people be cut off from aide, but I AM asking them to work to help themselves.

Thank you for the open, honest and objective comment XD. Once again, another statistic to try and divide this country. After it is all said and done, I really could care less how much more money the millionaires in my city, state or country are making because regardless of their success, I will still be responsible for paying my bills. Stop the hating folks and be a responsible American and do what you can to the best of your ability. Please though, stop the freaking whining and resentment!!!!

The GAP is the largest it's ever been in the history of this country. It's largely due to the Federal Tax codes that coddle the rich. When Mitt Romney is paying 15% taxes on Millions and I'm paying 28% on $60,000 there is a problem. We need a Flat tax rate with no deductions or loopholes and the Capital Gains (which is the lowest at 15% since WW2) needs to mirror the Flat tax rate. Then we will all be equal.

Or as some would prefer have the government legally steal their wealth for "redistribution".

Why not? The government handed it over to them in the first place. That's the thing you people always miss. THE GOVERNMENT REDISTRIBUTED UPWARD TO THE WEALTHY TO BEGIN WITH.

How can one make you people understand? Yes personal responsibility is important but no amount of personal responsibility will compensate for the government taking the cards and stacking them against the average joe. There is no path to prosperity for most people. It's gone. The choices are gone because the government took them away when they wrote a blank check to the rich. They paid the rich to send jobs overseas. They handed over vast sums of money for businesses they let get so big they couldn't be allowed to fail. They've robbed the middle class blind to elevate the rich with the obscene idea the rich will create jobs.

The rich did create jobs. They created them in China and India. They continued to charge top-dollar union wage prices for their goods that no are so cheaply made they longer even last a year. They siphoned money into their own pockets all with the help and encouragment of the government.

So yes, I think the government should redistribute the wealth. It only seems fair after years of siphoning it up to the wealthy, who incidently acquired it not by earning it but by paying slave wages to their employees.

XDm9mm

Is it fair? Life's not fair. That is what seems like a defeatist attitude to me.

It sounds like the speech I give my 8 year old daughter about how life is not fair because fair is just an idea that only exists inside peoples minds and that things are only fair sometimes because mommy and daddy do everything they can to make things as close to fair as they can be.

But, see I think our elected officials should be playing the role of mommy and daddy and doing everything in it's power to spread some of the money that has pooled up through crooked manipulation of the legal system, around to folks that have very little opportunity.

I doubt that we would agree on the role of government in this case even if we do agree that life is not fair. I think we should all do our part to make life as fair as possible. We are a society, sometimes we all suffer and pay for the bad choices of a few people but we also all sometimes benefit from the good decisions of a few as well.

Roscoe2u....

I DO agree that the tax codes definitely need to be rewritten. Although I don't agree with the single rate flat tax.

I would propose that there be a graduated scale similar to what we currently have, but eliminate ALL deductions and exemptions. (It would need to be phased in over say 5 years to help people acclimate to the changes and adjust their saving/spending habits.)

We also need to do the same for corporations. Eliminate all deductions and tax credits, with the exception of NORMAL business expenses (salaries for example).

I would also propose that there be a surcharge on all taxes paid for say the next 5-10 years with the proceeds to go to one thing only... DEBT REDUCTION. But this amount would be in addition to the normally budgeted debt service funds in an attempt to if not eliminate at least greatly diminish the burden WE'LL leave to our grandchildren and their children.

But again, people need to take some PERSONAL responsibility for their own situation. If they don't like what they have, at least make the attempt to IMPROVE their lives and not expect others to make life better for them.

livinginthewoods..

So, from your post, I gather you're telling your 8 year old daughter that it is fine for her to sit in school and play all day, never taking personal responsibility for learning how to spell or add and subtract, because the government will take the wages of someone who DID do those things and is earning a decent wage and give it to her.

With an attitude like you have, is it any wonder we are becoming a nanny state?

mj..... yes the "rich" (corporations) sent jobs overseas.

However; I don't know many people outside of my own family and circle of friends that go out of their way to buy American made products.

Did YOU protest when the factory down the street closed and the jobs got shipped overseas? Probably not... it wasn't YOUR job being eliminated after-all, and the imported product will be a penny or two cheaper.

Did YOU protest when the factory in the next county closed and the jobs got sent overseas? Probably not... Again, it wasn't YOUR job being eliminated. And again the product would probably be a few cents cheaper at the checkout.

When you complain about the CORPORATIONS sending the jobs overseas... look in the mirror. It was after-all YOU and everyone else that BOUGHT THE PRODUCT!!!!!!!!!!

Yes personal responsibility is important but no amount of personal responsibility will compensate for the government taking the cards and stacking them against the average joe. There is no path to prosperity for most people. It's gone. The choices are gone because the government took them away when they wrote a blank check to the rich. They paid the rich to send jobs overseas.

If it didn't happen to them then it just isn't true. Just look at the way they usually respond on these discussions.

I can't afford to pay for YOUR -you fill in the blank-. It's not my fault I went to college and YOU didn't.

They naturally assume that any one auguring in favor of the poor must in fact be poor because they can only see their own experience and they think everyone else is just as bad.

I have noticed this to be common to most people though, the genuinely good, mistakenly think that at there core, everybody is really as good as they are, likewise the truly rotten mistakenly think that everyone is really just as bad as they are.

The problem is bigger than just snarky remarks........no society has ever survived beyond a certain disparity in wealth.......we are facing that prospect now. When people hit the streets in desperation the rich will suddenly "love" that big powerful government they hate now.......

livinginthewoods // Kathryn...

I don't believe ANYONE is telling the poor or indigent to just shrivel up and go away.

However, I DO believe the VAST majority are saying, YES, I will help just don't ask me to support you in the life style I WORK for.

I have no problem with giving people a HAND UP... I just don't want to give them the continual HAND OUT.

And Kathryn... there is now, has always been and always will be disparity. There is no such thing as a Utopia in the world we currently inhabit. Will there ever be? I'm not smart enough to answer that. Maybe, one day in the very distant future, but I doubt it.

The concept of 'fairness' doesn't apply to 'life'. Life just is.

You don't get what you deserve, you get what you get.

It's your personal choice to do what you want with what you get, but if you chose to do nothing, don't expect those working to make the most of what they got to carry your load in society, because that is totally unfair.

Sure there is and always has been disparity.

However, the gap is growing wider and the income disparity is not just between uber-wealthy and indigent.

A large number of middle class families are no longer upwardly mobile, but barely hanging on or actually doing down the economic ladder, not because they don't have a job, or don't want a job, but because the cost of living is forever increasing while incomes are not.

In the 1960's you could get a minimum wage job and afford to own your own home in most places in America.I believe that if you go to work you should be paid enough to make a living without subsidised housing and food stamps.The economy is bad now but there's been a long term trend toward a underpaid underclass,With government programs that subsidise workers so big companies can pay substandard wages.Even college grads are paid much less than they were 20 years ago.And the same CEO who wants to cut your pay by 20% thinks he deserves 20 million a year to run a company that he didn't start or build but one he's run into the ground that's corporate America

I'm so sick of this even being a topic of conversation.

If somebody makes more than you, the odds are overwhelmingly in favor that they worked harder, and got a better education than you.

I'm very proud to say that I contribute to my county being a darker shade of blue on their map. Most people are content to just get by. So they don't get an education. They find a $10 an hour job, and are perfectly happy to spend their lives sitting at the bottom of the income scale. I wasn't happy there. So I went to college, and now I make $30 an hour, and I don't worry about how I'm going to pay my bills.

yes there will always be the poor. They are made up of mostly elderly, disabled and mentally ill people that have not had the luck of many of us.... I lived with very little for a long time, i never relied on anyone but myself to survive, but i was also able and willing to try and rise above. There are people that use the system from the top1% to the bottom 1% all those in between try and do the right thing. Be glad that you were not born with mental or physical disabilities Be glad that no huge hardships have hit you and your families to the point of never being able to recover. There will always be the poor..yes and if the ones that have been a little lucky could start being grateful for what they really have and realize it could all be taken away tomorrow, and stop pointing fingers at who they think could rise above, and be empathetic and grateful that they are not among the disabled and mentally ill, this world would be a better place. I am far from poor now and i enjoy a good retirement, but it wasn't always good, but i choose not to pat myself on the back because i was luckier then most, and we are not all given the same chances, some people take 2 steps forward and 5 steps back their entire lives and no matter what they do can never get ahead. try to see the big picture. Remember....if you have shelter, food and clothing you are richer then 75% of the world. Funny no matter how poor i ever was i never felt poor!

Our government needs to stand up to and protect us from the endless, selfish glutteny and unconscionable greed the wealthy practice.

Excuse me, but our elected officials (our government) are the wealthy. They aren't going to protect us from themselves.

Roscoe2u - If you are paid 28% or $16,800 in taxes on $60,000 income you seriously need to go see H&R Block and have them redo your taxes. Without any deduction you only owed $11,125 or 18.5%. That's at least $4,875 you are owed.

Or were you just lying to try to make make a point?

Yep years ago I went to the wonderful HR BLOCK experts because I sold a home and wasn't sure how to do my tax and they said I owed tax on capital gain of $10,000 which was the price that I had paid for the home when I bought it they had to be informed by me that it was deductable so from then on I learned they were dumber than me in filling out tax forms so that was the last time I went to them !!

Half of the comments here rely on the faulty premise that just because someone has a lot of money they did anything to earn it, which is simply not true.

Regardless of what you think is fair and what isn't, there is a simple basic fact. The middle class ultimately drives the economy. Think about it this way:

If you take a million dollars and give it to someone that already has $100 million, he might buy a few extra things but mostly he's going to sit on the extra money.

On the other hand, if you take a million dollars and distribute it among 1000 middle class families, you'll generate a heck of a lot of economic activity because that's 1000 families that will immediately run out and start buying things.

To put it another way, there is a real limit to how many thneeds one family is going to buy, no matter how much money they get. That's why a large gap between rich and poor is so destructive to the economy. It translates to lower sales for stores.

My family is spending only about half of what we were spending 5 years ago. Here's the thing: there are HUGE numbers of families around the country that are just like me. We're not buying things because we're trying to live within our means.

The bigger the gap between rich and poor, the more families there are that are like mine. That means that your store's sales will be down because most of us can't afford to spend as much as we used to.

knight...say you win $150 million take home on a $1 power ball play. You didn't really do anything to earn it, you just got lucky. By law it is your money to do as you please with, but you would be OK with someone who didn't bother buying a ticket to be entitled to some of it just because you have it?

As expected, Arizona is just COVERED in blue...

knight...say you win $150 million take home on a $1 power ball play. You didn't really do anything to earn it, you just got lucky. By law it is your money to do as you please with, but you would be OK with someone who didn't bother buying a ticket to be entitled to some of it just because you have it?

I'm talking about macro economics, the economy as a whole, which is what most of you obviously need a few classes on. One guy winning powerball doesn't wreck an entire state's budget, 1000 self important CEOs who pay no taxes and got the bulk their wealth by liquidating a 200 year old company they had no part in building up does, stock wealth with no real assets and middle class growth behind it does, generating millions in fees and interest charges that benefit nobody but 3 guys at a bank does.

You guys simply lack the ability to see the big picture, the system as a whole and how 400 people owning HALF THE WEALTH OF THE ENTIRE COUNTRY is a broken system.

Knight...I'll agree in part with your last comment, which is an order of magnitude different from your first comment.

If it's going to be fixed, the government will have to fix. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

@XDm9mm -- Your assertion would be valid if the disparity were more even throughout the country. The map shows distinct regional differences - something else is at work here.

The map suggests that there are influences within regions of our country that promote income disparity. That indicates that the conditions are artificially created. Income disparity is the work of man - not an act of God.

If it's going to be fixed, the government will have to fix. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

The government is the people (partly) and also has a representative conflict of interest in reining in these abuses because that is how half of them got their own wealth. Until the majority of the public has a strong understanding of how the economy works on a NATIONAL or even global scale, we are screwed. We are at a critical point already, futher imbalance is literally going to lead to another civil war and 100 years of national setbacks and pain.

Note that the map indicates Texas and Mississippi are not vastly different in terms of income disparity. Texas is the first or second largest state economy while Mississippi is the smallest. Texas and Mississippi are at opposite ends of the economic spectrum; however, they both show a higher degree of income inequality than many parts of the country.

That suggests that the size or health of a state's economy does not have that great an influence on income disparity. Simply growing the economy will not address income inequality.

I truly beleive if gas was around a $1.50 a gallon there wouldnt be a shrinking of the middle class.

@jsf00 -- The middle class is defined by income - not spending.

How would the price of any product on the market improve the income of the middle class? Throwing bread at the masses may fill their bellies but it does not change the disparity in economic opportunity.

The only way to strengthen the middle class is to lower the inequality in income. The map suggests that inequality is artificial - and - not influenced by the health or size of the economy.

The middle class is not disappearing because they are becoming richer - moving up in the economy. The middle class is disappearing because they are becoming poorer - with less economic opportunity. The map of income inequality does provide some support for that conclusion.

IF gas was down, so would all products. Do you not think the price of milk is determined by what it cost to get it to your local store?? It wouldnt cost as much to get products to places which it terms will lower cost on all products.

IF gas was down, so would all products. Do you not think the price of milk is determined by what it cost to get it to your local store??

Gas went from $2 gallon to 4 something back to $2/gallon for most of the last 2 years, and food prices didn't go anywhere but up.

I have not seen gas down to $2 since Clinton was in office.

Spencer I know dropout plumbers who make more than 30 an hour, that is just about starting wage for a drain cleaner, no college education required , ones lack of education has very little to do with their position in life or the income they are capable of securing, it has more to do with their ability to know what they can do and getting people to pay them for it. Also a college degree today unless it is a PhD is pretty much worth as much as a ged or high school diploma they are a dime a dozen and not any more of an advantage than a good dose of self respect. I have Children with degrees who can not make even as much as my high school dropout helper makes doing plumbing repairs.

It is worse today; the Gap between Rich and poor.

Never has this country seen high Unemployment since the Great Depression.

At a level of 8 per cent; that is still too high---more numbers that have not been counted; part time; people reaching retirement age, retired, no lookers, (given up), only feeding off Unemployment Checks, and people who have passed away. No benefits or pensions for them. The Taxed are being taxed to the max---we all will be poor from this long period that started in 2007, and has reached higher levels the past 3 years.

Mass Poverty in America. Who would have ever thought this possible.

We can all help by helping those in need; giving them money, buying groceries, helping Food Banks, and donating basics. This is a crucial time in America's history---

@jsf00 -- The middle class is defined by income - not by spending.

Your argument is simply to make being poor more affordable. That does nothing to address income inequality.

Income equality can be addressed in one way, Nermal, and one way only. The tools for success are all there; education through grade 12 is absolutely free, and community colleges, student loans, pell grants, second jobs and personal education funds make earning a degree possible. It simply a matter of persistence and resolve. Now, dropping out of school, having children you can't afford to raise, or earning a college degree in some useless field are the most common ways people doom themselves to being on the wrong end of the equality scale..... and please note that they do it to themselves; it's no one else's fault.

To the "they earned it" crowd. You might be able to think if you had more information, but the fact that you have so little information suggests you are unable to think.

It is not that some people have a lot of money and others don't. The problem is that the distance between them as been growing dramatically, obscenely - and dangerously - over the last 30 years.

The rich have not got any smarter, and they have not been working any harder. Their wealth has increased so greatly relative to the rest because of deliberate government redistribution policies.

Do you understand that? Many of them stole it to begin with, but those that did earn it, did not earn all of it. The government gave it to them.

Now, whenever someone proposes that the government stop giving it to them, you guys scream "socialism" "criminal redistribution".

I'm probably too old to see the end of this, but it will be one of two things - either the government will stop redistributing income upward, or we will in a few decades turn into something resembling Mexico. So, 9mm dude, hoard your guns, but realize that when the income/wealth gap grows too large in this country, they won't do you any good.

I have not seen gas down to $2 since Clinton was in office.

jsf00 - That's funny because it was $1.84 when Obama took office.

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/01/average-gas-pricesjanuary-26-2009.html

A Gap between the Rich and the poor doesn't mean that one can find something to motivate themselves to earn money--yes, the economy is bad, but there is still the "Edison", "Gates" factor out there.

Develop something with your time; try starting a small business, even if it is out of your own home--make something that is innovative, that will ease other's hard work. It happened in the 70's; and it is still possible now.

Reinvent yourself to earn money.

You people are like broken records.

Not everybody can be a business owner, not every one can be an inventor or an entrepreneur.

The whole point is, that a few decades ago, the average person with an average intelligence and education could go out and get an entry level job and easily afford to rent a place then within a few years work their way up a little and be able to afford a home and to raise a family.

This is with one income mind you, ONE.

That is gone, it doesn't exist in America any more, and if you think it does, then you have you head in the sand plain and simple. It was stolen from us and sold to china and other former third world nations that are on the rise while we sink.

It was stolen by the same crooked politicians that brainwashed half of the country into believing the nonsense that is trickle down economics. They took it right out of our pockets with one hand while they had us busy arguing over ridiculous stuff like abortion and gun control with the other hand.

That was what was stolen and that is all we want back, a chance.

Before you attack me for being on the "dole" please understand, I am lower middle class and I don't receive any government assistance besides state subsidised children's health insurance. I own my home and both vehicles, bought and paid for cash. That is personal responsibility.

The saddest part is, most of the people arguing here would likely agree on most things if half of them weren't so damned certain it was all somebody elses fault.

@spider-737231 -- You are promoting another 'supply side' fallacy. You are calling for increasing the quality of the supply of labor through education and by working more hours.

Income is never determined by workers - income is determined by who they work for. Your suggestion will not change that equation. No matter how educated a worker becomes, no matter how many hours are worked - their income is dependent upon who employs them. An employer has more impact on income inequality than an employee.

Increasing the supply of labor or improving the quality of that supply of labor will not change income inequality.

living in the woods:

Yes, everyone can be an entrepeneur---it takes an effort, motivation, and using what skills or talents you have used or had from the past. The mouth/words does a good job of getting you somewhere.

That's the lazy way out. Legalized Immigrants can tell great stories of coming to this country with a dime in their pocket, and making a good living for themselves and their families. I know many such people who worked their azzzzzzzzzzzzzes off, making successes of themselves; not relying on employers.

No excuses!

NMerm L----- Your post is nonsense, if you have skills tha are in demand, your employers will pay more for them, because he has to.

If you think you will be paid more for having no skills that you didn't acquire where you world, you are in error.

I pay my maintneneace people about $23.00 an hour and my tool and die makers about$28.00 an hour, I pay that because that is what I have to pat to get and keep them..

If I don't they go elsewhere..

Now if you are a person with no education and skills, I still pay what I have to get some one to do the job.

I am not going to pay more than I have to.

I have employed people for close to 40 years.

I have yet to have one of my employees come to be back in the 70's and say, Boss, I know you have to pay too much because of the shortage of people, so you can lower my wages.

Now I pay prevailing wages to get people to do a job..

@robert argent -- You are attempting to drive the equation with supply. That may sound good politically but is not based on the real world.

Even your arguments are based on the employer setting the pay - setting the income of workers. Who sets the income of the employer? Doesn't that create a situation for artificially increasing income inequality?

Would you pay $28.00 per hour if you had 10,000 skilled applicants for a job? Whether you would still pay that wage or not - only shows that you, the employer, decides income and has the greatest influence on income disparity.

Demand has more influence for setting prices and incomes than supply. 'Supply side' theories are backwards.

"I'm so sick of this even being a topic of conversation. If somebody makes more than you, the odds are overwhelmingly in favor that they worked harder, and got a better education than you." -Spencer

I don't care about this, if somebody works harder, they deserve more. I worked as a union carpenter most of my career and I enjoyed it, I made good money for me and my family, $1000-$2000 per week, no 401, no paid holidays, no sick days, but I liked working outside it was great. I'm retired now and I like it too.

What I object to is the rules are different, remember the savings and loan massacre. All the senators and congressmen in bed with the financial guys. Taxpayers bailed them out. Junkbond king Michael Milkin made $660 million that year. Until he was put in prison for six months and had to pay back $140 million, poor man. Now jump ahead to 2009 with all the insider trading and the collapse of Bear Sterns, and those other banks and financial institutions, call on the taxpayers again, too big to fail, etc.! Our economy collapses. Jobs lost, houses foreclosed, pensions lost, my brother lost $100,000 out of his 401k, roughly half, after working 30 years, and he was happy, some off his friends lost all of theirs. Now those foreclosed houses, are own by the banks again, are re-sold to investors, in lots so they can remake all their money again. The poor s.o.b. that was living in this house, with his family, is out on the street or in a rental because there were no jobs, again caused by the banks. What can you learn from this? First, our country is run by the "Golden Rule", he who has the gold makes the rules. Second, the business principle: "You play ball with me, and I'll shove the bat right up your ass!", think Enron. Ever since the movie "Wall Street", and the idea that "Greed is Good", these guys came out of the closet with the business plan of "I want it all", and with everything deregulated, it was a total financial feeding frenzy, that almost wrecked the whole world economy. Inequality of wealth has nothing to do with who works the hardest, or who has the better education, it has to do with fairness and honesty. In a fair and honest system, any person who has a need to acquire wealth will be able to achieve their desires.

The days when we had no real economic competition and folks with little education or skills could make a middle-class wage are long gone. It was a fluke to begin with, the result of all the destruction caused by WWII. All the left-wing rhetoric in the world isn't going to bring it back. If we want to compete in today's globalized economy, we need to find a way to better educate and train average Americans. And we need to do it by spending smarter, not more, because our country is going bankrupt at the existing spending level.

Forgive me for pointing out the annoyingly obvious but the whole "shocking gap between rich and poor" thing is a bad joke when put in historical or international context. Check out the photos by Jacob Riis or read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair if you would like to understand what real poverty in America was like and then compare it to the lives of the robber barons who own most of the wealth at the same time (Victorian Era) or do a little looking into the lives of most of the rest of the world. I am not saying I am happy about the way things are at the moment but folks get a grip on the real definition of "poor".

Poor doesn't mean only owning one car or having a car that isn't new. It doesn't mean being unable to buy the latest electronic gadget or super cool tennis shoes. It doesn't mean the inability to eat out or go to the movies. It doesn't even mean the inability to go to college. I am sorry but that definition of poor is terribly new and woefully inaccurate.

There are actual poor people in this country. Most of the people complaining about being poor though are not poor they just are not as wealthy as they want to be. There is a difference. If you are truly poor I feel for you and what I am saying is not directed at you. I understand that your situation is special and it IS harder to pull yourself out once you get to a certain point. I am talking to the idiots who still have a chance to pull out of the tailspin they are in and take back their lives. The time for sacrifice is now. Things are not going to get better. Go put in some time at a soup kitchen or other service where actual poor people go for help. Learn how they live and then start living on less yourself so you can put some money away / get out of debt. Things are going to get a lot worse really soon and if you *might* not end up being as poor as you are claiming to be.

Claiming to be poor has become very fashionable among many who are simply over extended because they have too much stuff they bought on credit and can't pay for with the jobs they can currently get. That is not poor. Having to choose between your cell phone and cable vs food doesn't mean you are on the brink of starvation. It means you are on the brink of having to give up your toys to eat. Ditto for the big house you can't afford or the fancy car you can't maintain because the payments are too high. Downsize and deal with it folks. Not because you are irritating the rest of us grown ups but because if you keep up your idiotic whining you are probably going to get a really good taste of what true poverty is like and then it will be too late to do much of anything about it.

Signed

A formerly poor person who made the sacrifices it took to break the cycle.

Lets look at some facts: the link provides facts no bias -

First I want to address a total loss of awareness post that the middle class and poor seek some utopia the poor seek some societal utopia? A fallacious argument what in the hell is utopia? Some health care? Some security for the elderly? Some stability for the very young? A disgusting argument to continue this self-destructive disparity of income and capital.

These putrid stories of "dealing with it" their puny success stories of making do on gutter wages this promotion of a monastic life style with no health insurance but prayer for health care - out of their minds discounted stories.

Here is a quick over-view of a critical research paper dealing with the social maladies associated with this world-wide trend some refer to as Neo-Colonialism or Post Neo-Colonialism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fX3SbHDTkk&list=FLzX1QAYGLo27M9vOxO2nGrQ&index=2&feature=plcp

The failure of Capitalism in America its greedy misanthropic nature as it matures as a means to a fair and stable society are revealed to us all. Our sea of blood drawn around the world to establish this new form of world wide Imperialism (united with the local Oligarchy and Plutocrats form a consortium) manifested in the privatization all of the earths natural resources, by force and other forms of coercion aided along with a world wide financial structure which consolidates power in those few around the world.

Yes, they partner-up, all significant Plutocrats, Oligarchy and power brokers, again around the world. These groups along with other special interests make the real money and that is all they care about is the status-quo and no amount of riches is enough their greed knows no boundaries.

For all of the rest...the 99%...the 99% of the world...only there for exploitation, manipulation, suppression nothing but serfs, semi-beggars grateful even to have their own money handed back to them in the form of Social Security: Yes these docile souls are grateful to receive their life long contributions, which is the main source of retirement income, doled out to them and now or soon at the young age of 70? They sure have some chohones wow unbelievable even outrageous to me.

Just a note: today I tried to upload a video to You Tube but was blocked, the new, yes world wide again, copy right law as country after country signs on bullied by guess who? Our New World Order blocked my Keith Urban video I tried to upload - how is this New World Order working for you? Not working for me. Soon to retire no problem for me but I still am controlled and now even on the Internet, my little Urban video, via the long arm of the law...ACTA..the new world wide copy right law...oh yes.

Ah the New World Order gotta love it.........God love it for it don't love you...

The New World Order -

Here an explanation of the new copy right law I had the misfortune to violate today I did use a third party that third party was a European music web-site I think maybe out of business as zippo (I could be wrong but another sharing site out of business) I was told was shuttered and not for an impact on earned income to Google. The latest effort for concentration of power by the mass communication mediums around the world in collusion with Google...in the process narrow the ability to share any video you make, it is all about the money.

In Italy and in many other countries there is a strong resentment to this curbing and herding of people the restriction on free communication through video most times using material the maker has paid for. If not the source has paid for and the source has paid for access get the idea? The product has already been paid for numerous times over and there is no profit motive in this exchange of ideas put to music...geez.

Okay enough of that here is the new - no I won't say it - ATW - law and yes it does impact you in terms of your freedom to hear dissenting voices as "don't go that way it leads to destruction" no longer. Ah time to hit some golf balls and get away from this whole scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSYJpXUWujU&list=FLzX1QAYGLo27M9vOxO2nGrQ&index=6&feature=plcp

The New World Order..not knowing the law is no defence you better bone up on a new law or you could be deemed a criminal. Not knowing the law is no defence don't try that old one.

ACTA - ACTA....don't violate the law...ah the law...know the law...ACTA ACTA

the once large and power-full middle class of the United States ,has been destroyed by our own government, outsourcing jobs, tax breaks for the large corporations, de-regulation of public transportation, utility's and most of all; by the greed of the multi-national corp., and a eunuch of a congress.

saxon - You forgot a factor on your list. The middle class's insatiable demand for inexpensive conusmer goods.

skup; that is all they can afford, real wages have been flat for 25 years, while inflation has risen over 125%; either buy inexpensive clothes ( or go naked), electronics(or do without computer, lights,appliances); we have destroyed the middle class, if i believed in conspiracy theory, i would believe it was done on purpose; we have now in place the new feudalism.

Aw cmon, its fair to think 80% of us should sit naked in the dark 12 hours a day so our lords and ladies can live in even more luxury.

There is no reason for the top 1% to control 93% of the wealth in this country. There is no reason for jobs that started at $50K a year +benefits, should now be paying $35K a year. Even if big corporations paid people an extra $500 a month, that would lift up plenty of people out of spiraling debt.

Just to clear things up... are you seriously blaming Obama for the last 30+ years of economic policies that created this inequality?

Even then, your statement makes no sense. Marx was advocating a classless society, saying that capitalism created a 2 class society.

99% of Republicans vote against their own interests. They are so gullible and so incitable that there is no reasoning with them. The uber elite now exactly how to gin them up using loaded words and phrases like: "Take our country back", "communism", "Marxism" (note how Mr. Krotch has no idea what he is talking about when refering to the "Marxist and Chief"), "attack on individual liberties", etc. Fortunately, at least 50% of Americans are not falling for it and future demographics will only increase the enlightened. Of course, the uber elite understand the demographic trends are not in their favor...hence, the efforts to suppress non republican voting blocks and stacking the courts with right wing fanaticals.

JV at least I have a crotch and balls, oh and a brain. Do you?

Krotch,

In a court, I'd say, especially with regard to a brain, that your assertion "assumes facts not in evidence."

Do what I did. Get Firefox and AdBlock Plus. You'll never have to look at that ad again.

There is a lotof your kind of posting going on.

This is all part of Obama's demagoguery.

The Portion of the wealth applying to the rich has been the same since 1972, it has run between 33% and 37%

it is a matter of record, still the liberals continue to pose that lie.

Since their god told them he wants them to be rich.... all the good christians are chasing the buck too.

It's not only the Xtain factons (not all, by any means) whose theology seems to be that god wants you to be affluent and that's a godly reward. Or some such. There are plenty of New Agey kind of groups who preach the same thing, while they also collect their 10 percent tithe. When I pointed this out to someone involved in this, she said, "You seem to think prayer should be for other people's benefit." Well, I don't pray, no matter what, but my loose understanding of a prayer system is that you don't pray for "stuff" you want, and you don't create your own reality beyond a small point of self confidence.

Problem being not enough millionaires to elect him. Not enough god freaks to elect Santorum, could be enough adulterer's to elect Newt. That leaves Ron Paul who is too damn old.........too many old white men are the problem in D.C. now.

I suspect your logic is flawed, i live in an area where the income gap is low but average income is very high with a high percentage of 250K/yr income earners and obama is a heavily favored in this area....not even close.

Kathryn, we live in a regulated, capitalism market. If there are disparities, the solution is simple. All the government has to do is pass regulations to give people living wages. Don't blame the rich for reaching their goals, blame your government.

Not sure where, but I read somewhere in these comments about there being a problem in D.C.

We do not have a free enterprise capital system.........if it were we would not be here......it was rigged long ago. I do blame the rich for rigging the system.

hs321 & Katherine: The 1% are government. See how there was never an insider-trading law for them but Martha Stewart went to prison for what our elected officials in D.C. have done for decades? They aren't just protecting the rich 1%. They are protecting themselves. Our elected officials are the 1%. And if they aren't when they get into office, they make it there by the time they leave office.

THE JOKE IS ON US: the middle class who works and pays taxes, supports tax loopholes and supports social welfare programs. Now, just shut up and go to work patriot.

No kidding Arrive. Just look at the difference between what Bill Clinton was worth when he left office and what the now 1 percenter is worth.

Well gee, if you want to make more money improve your skills make yourself worth more to an employer,, or start your own business.

or then why should we work to subsidize corporations? Pork belly projects , the black budget or anything else? There will always be the bad apple that spoils the rest, but for the most part, you can't lump everyone together, that is not a fair assumption.

Great posting and to the point, Kat.

And very T-R-U-E!

I'm from the south too and I get emails from my representatives. The ones from the GOP side...I can't ever remember reading anything that would convince "poor whites that their enemies are all black and tan and if they can't be rich they are at least "white"."

I think you might be so hopelessly polarized left you read what you want to into everything you read and hear.

born and raised in the south...hs, I know the code.

And the code is unspoken.

Hey, hs...so why does the South suddenly invent new voter laws? (For minorities.)

Hey, hs...Where's the voter IDs when voting thru absentee ballots?

Hey, hs...why no repub ID problems for Super Tuesday voters?

BTW: Obama/Biden win again in 2012! No doubt!!

We moved to Ga 3 years ago and you are spot on!

Born and raised in the south myself by bleeding-heart, liberal Democrats who themselves were born and raised in the south.

All I heard my entire youth was "the rich get richer and poor get poorer" and all the crap about filthy rich republicans. How the Democrats saved America during the Great Depression. I even voted straight Democrat the first time I could vote.

It didn't take me long to see that little changes in D.C., regardless of who is in power. Whatever party is in control, their primary objective is ensuring they get re-elected. Neither party really cares about the average American.

I could provide you with a list of filthy rich Democrats, fat-cat one percenters like Bill Clinton, but somehow I get the feeling that information would simply be twisted to fit your reality.

CDJ55...I'm an Independent and right now I believe Obama will get re-elected. No matter what state the country is in, the media will give Obama credit for everything good and blame Bush for everything that's not. You know, the usual 'code'.

Hey, hs...I was born in North Carolina. I happen to be black.

Politics aside...I honestly doubt you can tell me much about the usual code(s)!

Do you have your "new" voter ID to prevent the "widespread(?) voter fraud" in this "Age of Obama"??

I live in the south Katherine, quite simply,. it's called having morals and integrity, it's called paying your own way.

Bottom 80% of the country barely has any of either.

Baldy.... besides being "wealthy", the vast majority are also lawyers. Need I say more?

Baldy...that is the problem, we elect politicians, Democrat or Republican, to go to D.C. and represent us, but they primarily end up only representing special interests, which is primarily anyone who can make sure they get re-elected, either by donating money for campaigns or special interest groups who promise them votes if they get what they want.

Bet you are from the south Kristy

Kristy: "But the rate of people unwilling (not unable!) to work is getting much higher."

Please cite your source. Or are you just regurgitating GOP talking points?

No source. Just intelligent observation. At what point did it become necessary to have a source rather than to think for yourself?

Kristy: "No source. Just intelligent observation. At what point did it become necessary to have a source rather than to think for yourself?"

At the point you want to THINK FOR YOURSELF. It takes more than biased personal observation to judge correctly. Your opinion is NOT intelligent and worthless unless it's based on FACTS!!!

See 18.4 below

I don't understand your point. I am thinking for myself. And I assure you my thoughts and opinions ARE intelligent! Just because you disagree with them doesn't make them less so.

Also, you know nothing about my situation to merit the claim that my observations are biased.

OK Kristy, I defend your right to have any opinion you want--but unless it's based on fact, it's biased and not very useful. Especially in this discussion.

I do know your situation. You stated you had no facts just personal "observation" upon which your assertion re: "The rate of people unwilling (not unable!) to work is getting much higher" was based.

You cannot make a sweeping generalization re: "people" in general without any valid facts to back it up. That's the definition of "biased." Otherwise it's just your personal opinion and may very well be untrue. That's all.

No insult intended. ;^)

Kristy: "But the rate of people unwilling (not unable!) to work is getting much higher."

Why work for wages that won't pay for a damn thing?

Benjamin Franklin

I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I travelled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.

but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty

Yep lets oppress millions based on one guy's opinion, lets not bother doing any research or investigation to see if there is perhaps a reason why more than half the country is sliding down the income ladder.

The left wants to punish success and reward failure. If youre poor and dont like it, do something about it instead of sitting around waiting for somebody else to do something about it for you.

Steve, "The left wants to punish success and reward failure"

B.S.!!! Where do you get this stuff from? Cite your source. Otherwise you're just letting the "right" do your thinking for you.

Many of us have "done something about it" and still are not being "rewarded," ok? See 18.4 below.

The left wants to punish success and reward failure.

You mean liberals like Warren Buffet? The Kennedys? Ted Turner? Bill Gates? Untrue statement. Go back to Faux news.

Erin

If you are unable to take care of yourself, whose fault is it other than yours.

If you are unable to take care of yourself, whose fault is it other than yours.

When 90% of the country cannot take care of itself, despite being one of the most educated and most productive work forces on the planet it is a system wide problem.

SAM ADAM---------no sorry libby, theose people are far to rich to be concerned about anything and are now trying to buy their way into heaven.

People like you and Katherine are the real reason why the US is in the mess it's in.

You have tried to take more of the wages of working people and use them for your own ends or give them to the handouters..

You people have convoluted logic in such a fashion as to convince yourself that business and the "rich" will just stay here and more more of their earnings every year for you to take and use as you will.

We are losing business in a steady stream going where they don't have to deal with Obama's handout programs or his green fantasies.

The last year that the government released any numbers on the subject, there were double the number of people in the last quarter of 2009 ceding their citizenship and leaving the USA, than in all of 2008, taking large amounts of our capital investment money with them.

We have tried to tell the folks like you for 7000 years, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

The same things always happen, the "producer" look around at all of the users taking and they do one of two things, set down with the users, or they go where they can keep what they earn.

Still everytime an Obama comes along, you folks jump on the band wagon.

And you will end like the losers always do, look at Greece.

George...

There is a degree of thruth in what you say. But, part of the problem is we have become a nation of consumers.

WE allowed our corporations to send the jobs overseas to save a few pennies at the register. This started just after WWII and continued slowly, until the last ten to fifteen years when the flood gates opened.

I'm doing what I can to make sure my neighbors across the country stay employed by purchasing everything I can find that is Made in America.

Until the manufacturers realize people won't buy imported product, they'll continue to make it overseas.

Grandson and his wife both have college degree's , here in Oklahoma it doesn't mean a thing.......they both have low paying jobs.

Too late. The horses have already left the barn and they're not coming back. Technology improvements (the thing that accelerated the exodus 10-15 years ago) and cheap labor continue to make it much less expensive to build in third world countries.

George: "Do you think that the person that went to college, got their degree, and now works for 14.00 bucks an hour didn't attempt to "improve their personal situation" as you suggest?"

Right on! I know many (including myself) in that position. Put myself through University. Paid back student loans over 10 years. And now they want to pay me $12.00 per hour!

You could not be more correct: "The old "pull yerself up by yer bootstraps" routine you guys have been selling isn't worth a penny anymore."

Thank you George!

Erins, I'm sorry for your situation. And I agree that it isn't fair. And my solution to that may be something such as having different minimum wage brackets. For example, if you are a college graduate with 5 years of experience you should make at least $12/hour, 10 years $14/hour, etc.

I think you were misunderstanding my complaint above. I am simply saying that people in your (AND MY) situation are doing the right thing. We are working for what we have. And I know I'm working hard, and I'm sure you are too. And it just aggravates me that all these people around me (people in my family and in my community) are taking handouts and are not trying to find jobs. And I'm only talking about the ones NOT TRYING to work!

Jobs did not leave this country so that we could save a few pennies at the register....Jobs left this country so share holders could gobble up more profits. It was all in the name of greed and with no thought of what would happen to Americans as the result!

We've always been a nation of consumers. What has changed is the amount of the consumers, not our consumption. Take a look at the US population post WWII, and look at it now. Corporate greed is what drives this, nothing else. As Kim Heitz says, jobs being exported for corporate shareholder profit, not out of the kindness of their hearts so that we the people can save a buck at the register.

Additionally, if you took all the people that are on TANF, SNAP, WIC, and other social assistance programs, they wouldn't hold a candle to the amount of money spent or NOT RECEIVED through corporate welfare and tax avoidance by the top 5% in this nation. Historically it has not been the poor that have driven a country's economic woes, but the other end of the spectrum. I don't think all of this nation's food stamps would add to half of what the revenue system misses through loopholes. Sorry, not buying it, and never will.

Spoken like a "HAVE"

Kathryn

If you live in a part of the country where there are not economic opportunities, and you choose to stay there, whose fault is that?

Steve: "If you live in a part of the country where there are not economic opportunities, and you choose to stay there, whose fault is that?"

Nobody's fault (why must you always assign blame to someone?) But if you're broke--how can you move? Don't you realize it's costs a lot of $ to move (and I've done it--more than once!)

How much wealth you are able to accumulate is up to you.

It only it were that simple. Not all people who are poor choose to be. Sometimes you lose your job due to no fault of your own because it's cheaper to hire someone in India or China. Sometimes a medical disaster can drain your bank account if you are one of the many who do not have health insurance. Not all pooor people are stupid and/or lazy. Circumstances can be beyond one's control.

Money creates more money, debt creates more debt. The pie may be unlimited, but creating wealth from debt is harder than creating gold from lead. Meanwhile those with millions keep on making millions by doing nothing more than paying peanuts and charging extortion rates for debt when the inevitable hardships arise.

Agree with OWS 100%

OWSrichmondva-You must be a history buff. It all started with Reagan and his insane "trickle-down" economic system..that royalty, and other tyrants have used for generations..I predicted in 1984 ( that 30 years from then) we'd be seriously heading towards being a third-world nation, and that if we kept voting millionaires into office at all levels that's who would be ruling us..The GOP and Tparty are trying to "legally" acquire control of all aspects of our lives through the electoral system. Over 50 % of our members of Congress are now multi-millionaires...that's crazy, and dangerous.The election in 2012 is critical ; either we turn the corner and move away from racism, economic injustice, prohibit unlimited money in politics, make the rich and corporations pay their fair share of taxes, and punish those who send jobs overseas (Wallmart,etc)or have a real ol'fashion revolution. The indigent poor, working poor, those PRACTICING Christians, and adherents of the "Golden Rule" of all stripes have had enough. Vote Independent !

Nonsense the Welfare numbers by percentage have been REDUCED since the 1970's yet the Top 1% net income and their Hired Goon Government workers have increased 1000%.

Quite listening to their Propaganda and Disinformation and do your own research into our REAL History!

He is soooo wrong in so many ways............it is the 1% who have robbed this country blind.

Myth: People on welfare are usually black, teenage mothers who stay on ten years at a time.

Fact: Most welfare recipients are non-black, adult and on welfare less than two years at a time.

Here are the statistics on welfare recipients:

Traits of families on AFDC (1)

Race
--------------
White    38.8%
Black    37.2
Hispanic 17.8
Asian     2.8
Other     3.4

Time on AFDC
---------------------------
Less than 7 months     19.0%
7 to 12 months         15.2
One to two years       19.3
Two to five years      26.9
Over five years        19.6

Number of children
-------------------
One           43.2%
Two           30.7
Three         15.8
Four or more  10.3

Age of Mother
------------------
Teenager      7.6%
20 - 29      47.9
30 - 39      32.7
40 or older  11.8

Status of Father        1973     1992
-------------------------------------
Divorced or separated   46.5%    28.6
Deceased                 5.0      1.6
Unemployed or Disabled  14.3      9.0
Not married to mother   31.5     55.3
Other or Unknown         2.7      5.5

Notes on teenagers

As the statistics show, teenage mothers comprise a very small part of the welfare population.

And contrary to popular belief, teenage pregnancy has declined in the last several decades. Many are surprised to learn that the height of teenage pregnancy in the U.S. actually occurred in the 1950s - a decade known for its supposed conservative social values. Between 1960 and 1992, the number of births per 1,000 teenagers (aged 15-19) declined from 89 to 61. (2)

However, this was also an era when individual welfare benefits declined. Between 1970 and 1991, the purchasing power of benefits for the typical AFDC family fell 42 percent, primarily as a result of state and federal cuts. (3) Ironically, many conservatives will be surprised to learn that their correlation still stands, even if they thought it was in the other direction.

However, the period from 1946 to 1963 is known as the "Baby Boom," because all childbearing age groups - not just teenagers - were having children at unusually high rates. The teenage birth rate is not the only one that has declined in the decades since.

Furthermore, the socially conservative 50s featured much less sex education, and many sexually active teenagers were ignorant of birth control. The falling teenage birthrates in the last several decades could as well be correlated with better sex education as falling individual welfare payments.

And on that score, we should compare the U.S to Europe, which not only promotes early sex education to a far greater degree, but also has far greater welfare benefits for mothers with dependent children. And the success or failure of these two very different policies can be seen in the following statistics:

Sexually active teenage population: (4)

Norway          66%
United States   65
United Kingdom  57
Germany         56
Canada          53
Italy           34
France          34

Percent who have not had intercourse by age 20:

               Boys  Girls
Belgium         61     63
Netherlands     58     62
Germany         33     28
Norway          33     25
United Kingdom  24     23
France           9     25
United States   12     16

Percent of sexually active single 15 to 19-year olds using
birth control: 

Germany         95%
United Kingdom  92
Netherlands     88
Norway          87
Sweden          79
Denmark         70
United States   56

Teen pregnancies per 1,000 teenagers:

United States   98.0
United Kingdom  46.6
Norway          40.2
Canada          38.6
Finland         32.1
Sweden          28.3
Denmark         27.9
Netherlands     12.1
Japan           10.5

Teenage mothers per 1,000 teenagers

United States   54
United Kingdom  31
Canada          28
France          25
Norway          25
Germany         20
Finland         19
Denmark         16
Switzerland     10
Netherlands      9
Japan            4

Notes on race

i tried to find it , but i wan't to say welfare was at 1.8% until 2007 and then started to go up due to the economy

i did find 35% but that number included Social security, disability retirees food stamps heat assistance ect...