Darned advertising!

Grandpa, where you been? You can only buy flat screen TV's today.

I'm surprised it is only 1 in 4.

notsosmart:

If you believe that you can't buy something other than a flat screen TV, where've YOU been? Certainly not in a Walmart, Kmart, Target, .....just sayin'!

I think the point is, people are buying new flat screen TVs when there are plenty of old-style CRT TVs out there that still work fine - go to any garage sale this weekend, you're bound to find at least one that still does the job.

It's a mature technology - a reputable brand-name TV from the 90s should still be working today. But they're just not cool and won't impress your friends when they come over to watch the game. Keeping up with the Joneses is more in vogue now than ever.

Would be interesting to see the percent of folks with flat-screen tv, smartphone, high-end sneakers, etc. by income group. My guess is a lot of that debt for the $30,000/year income group is on the wall at home, in the pocket, and on the feet. Just saying.....

Maybe you should quit saying and shut your mouth, anything to distract people from the real facts that most people haven't had a significant pay raise since Reagan was alive, that the cost of the basic costs of life for a middle class family have gone up exponentially while income is largely flat and even declining for many hardworking americans, oh but they should come home after working a 12 hour day and sit on a ratty old chair and stare at a blank wall, shouldn't they?

I have recently seen a surge in those commercials offering "credit" to buy a new flat screen HD tv. It's the same kind that came out for the computers a few years ago. I kid you not, they say "are you missing out on good tv like everyone else? Do you deserve to see programs in HD?" (not exact, but pretty close!) I couldn't believe it! It's the same kind of scam that keeps getting people further into debt by convincing them they deserve to have these things.....at only $20-$50 per week or some such. I do not have an HDTV. I do not have a widescreen TV. My tv viewing is messed up because of the channels catering to those people and forgetting the rest of us. <sarcasm> My life must be over. </sarcasm>

I am very fortunate. I refinanced my house back years ago when the rates first started to go down (and froze for a bit) and paid off the credit cards. Now, I've refinanced again and have a super low rate and no other debt, but the rising utility bills that are sucking everything left.

As one working with an agency dealing in financial relief in the rust belt, I'll guarantee you "grandfather's" comments are dead on! They wouldn't shut off their smart phones if their life depended on it. My generation grew up with party lines for telephones, and we argued who would answer the phone in our house. Today, trust me you would survive if the cell phone towers went dead. You'd find something else to do and stick that average family monthly cell plan "Hello Benjamin!" into your pocket.

Grandfather-2041741

Would be interesting to see the percent of folks with flat-screen tv, smartphone, high-end sneakers, etc. by income group. My guess is a lot of that debt for the $30,000/year income group is on the wall at home, in the pocket, and on the feet. Just saying.....

Grandfather,

You are stating:

"Poor people should be deprived of or not have access to products that make lifeenjoyable."

There are posters that also state that poor people should not have access to medical care, trips, televisions, cell phones, ipods and computers. These are ill-conceived statements. Here is why:

- Health care is a human right.

- Trips are educational and give people the opportunity to relax.

- Television is technology that is 60 years old.

- Cell phones are an excellent way for parents and children to communicate concerning safety...or, just to say "I love you."

- Ipods store news and educational pod-casts - and great music.

- Computer skills are necessary advance one's education, to become employed and to be able to communicate in today's world.

To deny the poor access to technology is "mean-spirited."

America is not served well by Trapping the poor in the economic basement. We gave lofty banking thieves a 25 billion dollar bailout package and we permit conglomerates such as Bank of America, Exxon and GE to not pay any taxes.

I think we can permit the poor to have some comfort in life.

You judge a nation by how it treats the least among it.

I dont know about most people I dont have a smart phone or a flat screen tv.Instead my husband works 3 part time jobs and we are only making enugh to pay the rent and keep the lights on.I do have a cell but I dont pay for it

Grandfather is dead on. I make a very good living, but still watch an old style CRT TV and use a basic cell phone, not a smart phone with data plan and all the other bells and whistles. I am sick of hearing people crying about not being able to pay the bills when those bills include extended basic cable packages with HBO and sports packages, Smart phones with unlimited data packages, etc.

Too many people in our society feel that they have a right to instant gratification. The idea of saving up to buy something or to go on a vacation is unheard of to these people. They want it now but really can't afford it so they put it on a credit card and then whine about there bills and credit card debt. When I first started working I went years without going off on a vacation somewhere so that I could put some money in the bank as a cushion against bad times. I also did not go out and buy every toy on the planet using credit cards. If there was something I really wanted, I put money aside every paycheck until I had enough to go out and buy it. Buying non-essential items on credit is dumb and only leads to big debts and paying three or four times what the item cost by the time you factor in the high credit card interest. Putting a vacation on a credit card is even more absurd. You do not need to go on a trip the enjoy taking time of to spend at leisure with your family and friends. People need to get back to the mindset of saving for things instead of buying them on credit. No one needs a 47" HD flat screen or the latest iPhone. Try doing something novel like reading a book for entertainment. A basic TV and cell phone will suffice until you truly have the means to afford the toys.

The only things that debt should be used to buy are a home and maybe a car. If you are on hard times, I can see using a credit card to keep food on the table and buy needed clothes, etc. Credit should not be used to buy luxury items. Doing so plunges people into an endless cycle of debt from which many never dig themselves out.

25Walker, what you don't GET is that the poor are NOT "entitled" to "pleasure". And sorry, but I grew up in a day when we didn't NEED electronics to entertain ourselves.

And 30 years ago, when my daughter was in grade school, the teacher asked the parents before teacher/parent conferences it they had any advice to give 3rd graders, and mine was "Learn to read for pleasure, and you will never be lonely or bored." It was true then, and true now, the only difference is that it is ALSO a SKILL later in life if you have a 'knack' for reading and COMPREHENDING it.

I had dinner with a friend last week, and her son and HIS 2 year old son were visiting, and he was bragging to a friend who stopped by about his newest 'smart phone' with all these bells and whistles. Meanwhile, He and his wife neither one works full time, they have no insurance, are on all sorts of government programs, and he has enough money to BUY a fancy phone/program? The 'aid' money he and his family gets is what ENABLES him to have a phone/plan that is much more expensive than mine.

WHEN do I PERSONALLY get to get any bennies for being one of the schlubs who actually PAY taxes?

And where do the recipients of the "benefits" and "entitlements" get off thinking they "deserve" those things just because other people (who EARNED them) have them?

And at what point do the "poor" start demanding CADILLACs because other people have them?

The BIGGEST predictor to being poor your whole life is QUITTING school, followed closely by having kids too young, and too many of them.

NONE of those is the fault of the "haves".

The cost of having a flat screen TV (now just called - a TV), nice shoes, and a smart-phone are miniscule compared to the cost of student loans, rent, food, healthcare.

The reason people are in debt isn't because of these relatively small costs. Is there anyone in here who would like to pay off my student loans? I will buy you the best new TV out there to show my gratitude. Don't worry - I'll put it on my credit card.

This is a very misleading and slanted article where the author presents a limited, onesided view of the problem. It's rather hard to have any savings at all when the Corporate elite and Republicans have kept the wages very low for decades that has not even begun to keep up with inflation. It's called "Corporate Slavery" and the Republicans want to eliminate the minimum wages requirements, too. Another thing not mentioned, is the fact that most of the taxes come from the 99%, who do not have the elite privilege of tax loopholes and many other tax exemptions (esp. to those who didn't earn it, but had the inheritance handed down to them). It's too bad we can't put the elite outrageous salaries on the same diet.

To quote the article:

"A bad credit rating can also create a double whammy for those people looking for jobs because some employers now use credit reports when evaluating job candidates. That's even worse news for individuals trying to pay off debt."

This above practice is illegal without your written consent (Except when applying for the greedy, corruptible financial and banking positions.) Even then, they are still required to have written consent to look at your credit rating. I can't imagine anyone working for that type of organization unless they have a similar greedy, etc. attitude.

Jerry, sorry to burst your bubble, but in most cases you can't even qualify for welfare if you're making $30,000/year. I remember our family did not meet the requirements because my 15 yr old brother took an after school job at Burger King and that put our household income just over the income limit.

Second of all, you'd qualify for the EIC at that income, but seriously, I'm not going to fight a parent--who HAS A JOB but is only earning $30,000/year and is trying to raise 4 children on that--for the $1200-$4000 more they might get once a year around tax time.

Please note the correction of writing formation with the posting #1.15. The quote part with quotation marks should have been indented; but the time for corrections ran out.

To quote the article:

"A bad credit rating can also create a double whammy for those people looking for jobs because some employers now use credit reports when evaluating job candidates. That's even worse news for individuals trying to pay off debt."

This above practice is illegal without your written consent (Except when applying for the greedy, corruptible financial and banking positions.) Even then, they are still required to have written consent to look at your credit rating. I can't imagine anyone working for that type of organization unless they have a similar greedy, etc. attitude.

Jerry-450071

The 30K is misleading because it does not include ... Earned Income Credit (created by the Democrats as a back door welfare payment.

The above is what happens when you get "history" lessons from Rush and Glenn Beck.

Enacted in 1975, the initially modest EIC has been expanded by tax legislation on a number of occasions, including the widely-publicized Reagan Tax Reform Act of 1986, and was further expanded in 1990, (Bush year) 1993, (Clinton year) and 2001, (Bush Jr year) regardless of whether the act in general raised taxes (1990, 1993), lowered taxes (2001), or eliminated other deductions and credits (1986).^[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_credit

The EITC, which has received strong bipartisan support since its introduction in 1975, now represents the nation’s largest anti-poverty program for non-elderly individuals.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/ecm_dlv/groups/public/@nyu_law_website__journals__law_review/documents/documents/ecm_pro_058047.pdf

25Walker,

If you feel this strongly that the poor need all the bells and whistles, go ahead and buy these things for the poor. I resent my tax money being given to people on welfare so they can have all the stuff.

I only have a flat-screen because it was given to me as a Christmas gift. I have been unable to give away my 37" Sony TV even to poor people because nobody wants it. It still works perfectly but they feel they deserve the newest and the best. I have a cell phone but it's a basic plan. I have basic cable TV as well.

I went on a vacation last year only because I was able to get my plane ticket through credit card miles and my room was comped.

That's Princess to u

I dont know about most people I dont have a smart phone or a flat screen tv.

Princess,

You cannot assume that most poor people have smart phones. Smart phones are more advanced and expensive than basic cell phones. You cannot also assume that most poor people have flat screen televisions as oppose to the old "tube style" televisions. Most television manufacturers now only make flat screen tvs.

The poor should not lock themselves out of television viewing and learning because some folks are offended that they are not abjectly miserable in their homes. The poor should not be forced to listen to the U.S. president's annual state of the union address...sitting besides a 1940's style fireside "chat" radio.

Instead my husband works 3 part time jobs

When able, the poor are also required to work for their benefits.

Jerry-450071

The 30K is misleading because it does not include welfare, food stamps (which can be 700$/month for a family of four (nontaxable), Earned Income Credit (created by the Democrats as a back door welfare payment

Jerry, the counterpart to the welfare and Earned Income Tax Credit for the poor is called CORPORATE WELFARE - in the form of unneeded industry subsidies, tax loopholes, "tax shelters...otherwise known as...the 15% Capital Gains tax rate," phony offshore headquarters so that the wealthy can hide their loot, offshore bank accounts, bailouts, job outsourcing, deregulation and any clever scheme the "clever" company men can conjure.

the classic American hidden economy.

Jerry, this is also known as "Swiss banks accounts"

The government went after these tax cheats and if they voluntarily turned themselves in the the U.S. government offered them amnesty.

Putting a vacation on a credit card is even more absurd.

You do not know what methods the poor typically use to purchase televisions.

Are you at the check-out counters collecting demographic information? What empirical data collection methods are you using that has caused you to make such a blanket and obtuse statement?

It is absurd to deny the poor access to technology that is 60 years old.

stealing copper, aluminum siding , etc.

This statement sounds as if you are referring to a home contractor who is cheating a homeowner.

selling drugs, etc

Check the government's statistics on who buys and sells drugs in this country.

Currently there are MORE THAN 70 poverty programs which steal money from the American taxpayer to give to this army of people. Stop it.

There are too many wealth subsidizing programs that are being given to the wealthy. We should stop it.

To JS in SD,

To quote another poster regarding your posts, "same ole garbage from you every night."

MOmaid

25Walker, what you don't GET is that the poor are NOT "entitled" to "pleasure". And sorry, but I grew up in a day when we didn't NEED electronics to entertain ourselves.

Momaid,

What you do not perceive is that human beings are by moral standards and because they are human - deserve at least a minimum level of comfort. What you call "pleasure" are necessities to stay physically well and psychologically balance. What you do not GET is that those that have more, should not be crowned with more by taxpayer. Concerning your "analogy" you can keep it to yourself.

An Indepdent Thinker,

I agree with you. There are too many people that have [selfish] attitudes.

You judge a country by how it treats the least among it.

Jerry,

Putting a vacation on a credit card is even more absurd.

Jerry, everyone deserves to relax.

It does not make sense to drive the poor into mental health facilities. If this scenario developed, you would then complain about the state's increased cost to care for the poor in mental institutions. You would call it more "welfare."

It is better to see the forest, then to look only at the trees.

@25WALKER

What do you want min wage raised to 75K a year so they can afford crap?

So - what would you say about a family who was earning, say, $50,000 a year and was carrying $300,000 in debt?? Is that bad??

Now - think about this - proportionally, that is EXACTLY where we are as a nation.

As of 6:40 PST, when I saw the vote, the ratio among those who voted was closer to 2 in 5 who had more debt than savings, as opposed to the 1 in 4 statistic msnbc quoted. That's approximately 40% folks!

@25Walker -People like you are a cancer on this once great nation where people were proud, hard working and self-reliant. Grow up already. No, poor people DO NOT deserve or are entitled to smart phones, flat screens, nice vacations, or anything else you list. But what the hey, with the massive amounts of government and non-profit aid available to all the moochers in this country (Jerry's post at 5:43pm summed it up well), there really aren't any really poor people anymore. I can't believe the BS I read on these blogs. People like you make me sick.

25Walker: I agree with the others here. Poor people do not deserve my tax dollars to buy the niceties you seem to think are inalienable rights. I grew up without cell phones or cable TV and didn't become mentally unbalanced. Our vacations were usually road trips to visit family.

Poor people need food, shelter, and child care so they can go to work, not given the means to sit around entertaining themselves on govt funds.

Laura-313822

25Walker,

If you feel this strongly that the poor need all the bells and whistles, go ahead and buy these things for the poor. I resent my tax money being given to people on welfare so they can have all the stuff.

Laura,

You would be better served by resenting and campaigning for the wealthy to stop robbing America. Through their myriad schemes, these white-collar robbers have drained the U.S. Treasury of Trillions of dollars. The greedy has more of your money than the poor has. You are just too politically naive to realize this fact.

Auto 101

@25WALKER

What do you want min wage raised to 75K a year so they can afford crap?

The minimum wage should guarantee a basic and decent standard of living.

The Republicans would like to eliminate the minimum wage. The Tea Party was more "reasonable and generous" on this issue. The Tea Party thinks that 25 cents per hour is a great minimum wage. These positions are degrading and unAmerican. America is suppose to stand for opportunity.

jac-931625

@25Walker -People like you are a cancer on this once great nation...

jac,

It is "people" like you who are a cancer.

Off of slave wages and off of the backs of and the poor, you want to make great lives for yourselves. You are a smug and deficient person who cannot make it off of your own lack of greatness. Thus, you feel "taller" by making the vulnerable unnecessarily suffer.

Grow up already

jac, "growing up" is not equal to being callous.

No, poor people DO NOT deserve or are entitled to smart phones, flat screens, nice vacations, or anything else you list.

If we can subsidize Wall Street, we can help the poor.

the moochers in this country (Jerry's post

The "moochers in this country" are not the people at the bottom of the economic rung. Jerry's post was incomprehensibly wrong.

I can't believe the BS I read on these blogs.

jac, you "can't believe the [your expletive] on these blogs" because you have surrounded yourself by the politically blind and self-deluded haters.

People like you make me sick.

Hopefully, you will be too sick to to go to "work" tomorrow.

You would be well served by losing a day's pay.

Good night.

Don't worry, some people are doing great!

"...Deutsche Bank, according to the Senate report, went on to sell toxic mortgage-backed securities “without disclosing to potential investors that its global head trader of CDOs had extremely negative views” about the securities, or that, according to the bank's models, the assets had recently lost billions of dollars in value.

Despite earning millions through his documented involvement in what he himself called a “Ponzi scheme,” Lippmann is neither doing time in prison nor fending off federal investigations. Rather, he is back to his old business of placing bets on toxic assets."

How the government enables Wall Street parasites to cash in on the crisis

22 February 2012

As the Obama administration concludes a settlement with five major banks, quashing state investigations into rampant fraud related to home foreclosures, speculation in the mortgage-backed securities that caused the 2008 meltdown is once again picking up.

Saturday's New York Times reported that Greg Lippmann, a former Deutsche Bank trader who made millions of dollars personally and $1.5 billion for Deutsche Bank by betting against mortgage-backed securities, at the same time his bank was selling them to clients, is back in business buying and selling these toxic assets.

The article noted that others resuming trading in these assets include American International Group (AIG), the insurance giant that was bailed out by the government to the tune of $100 billion, and a former mortgage team from Lehman Brothers, the Wall Street investment bank whose collapse triggered the global financial panic on September 15, 2008.

Lippmann, who was the head collateralized debt obligation (CDO) trader at Deutsche Bank during the housing bubble and its implosion, has now started his own hedge fund, LibreMax Capital, and succeeded in raising over a billion dollars to speculate in mortgage-backed securities. (CDOs are complex securities comprised of mortgage-backed securities, which are themselves assembled from pools of home loans).

Thus, three-and-a half years after the financial crash that triggered the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, the same speculators whose swindling caused the banking meltdown have not only been bailed out by the government, they have been put in a position to make a new financial killing by the government’s policy of cheap credit and its refusal to carry out serious bank reform or pursue criminal prosecutions.

...Lippmann's activities during the meltdown were described in a 600-plus page report on the Wall Street crash released last April by the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations. That report, which detailed fraudulent and illegal actions by Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs and Washington Mutual and the complicity of the ratings agencies and federal bank regulators, was quickly buried by the media and has remained a dead letter…

…The case of Lippmann exemplifies how the policies of the Bush and Obama administrations have enabled the financial elite to cash in on the crisis amid the social ruins left by its criminal activities. While millions of people have lost their homes, either through fraudulent foreclosures or as a result of predatory mortgage practices, the financial parasites continue to rake in millions…

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/feb2012/pers-f22.shtml

The minimum wage should guarantee a basic and decent standard of living

And what is defined as a basic standard of living? I can buy a non flat screen tv for 30 bucks or do we go by a $800 TV?

No one is saying you cant have luxury's we are saying" live your wage". Most million ares drive an F-150 and never paid more than 30K for it. So what do we go by for a basic car in price?

You would be better served by resenting and campaigning for the wealthy to stop robbing America

You have no clue what wealthy people are and who falls in it do you? Many people have millionaires next door to them and never know it. I will let you know some thing most millionaires are first generation and have never inherited more than 10K.

I don't need cable I have a book I can get from the library if I needed the net I went to the same place. I did it my self for 4 years. not having Cable or the Internet (2002-2006). I did this so I could have health insurance. It is all about priority's.

You can get a cell phone for $20 a month. or do you need a $300 Smart phone with a 110 monthly bill?

does a person need a $1500 dollar computer or can they use a $250 dollar one?

Don't forget the Xbox or the PSP3 we all need. that is another $300 and $60 for each game.

Sadly, I'm surprised it's not more then 1 in 4. My husband and I live within our means, if we can't afford it we don't get it. We only have one credit card and while it may be frustrating from time to time that we can't get what we want now, we realize that saving up for it and not putting ourselves in debt is the safer smarter option. We have some friends that we constantly have to bite our tongues on lecturing. She has a very large tuition debt, they can't afford to get their cat de-wormed however she just bought a new record player (because she wanted it now) and he goes out to dinner twice a day. They mismanage their funds so much it's astonishing how much debt they wrack up within a week....and yet they constantly complain that they don't have enough money to pay the bills... Come on people, be smart. You don't need half the crap you want.

Our country is so close to going under from sheer stupidity and spite it is ridiculous.

First of all, how much does a tv or a phone cost compared to most of the expenses of modern life? It generally is paid off in a couple months tops and once paid off it isn't like it adds all that much cost.

TVs, Cell phones - they repo these or turn them off if not paid for, these are not long term drains on someones income.

On the other hand, most people are paying 50% or more of what they make for housing. In 1960 a house cost 2 years average wages, they now cost 10x average wages.

Food used to be less modified, more nutritious, and cheaper, many families are now spending double what they did a generation ago for food.

Gas is on track to be $5/gallon. How many fillups does it take at that price to pay for a nice 42" LCD TV? Not that many.

Education costs have been DOUBLING every 10 years, you dinosaurs who went to school 20 years ago and claim sainthood because of it should realize it is now roughly 4x as expensive as when you went. In addition, unemployment on 16-25 yr bracket is almost 50%, the jobs simply do not exist and the few who can get jobs are making minimum wage, which isn't even enough to pay rent in most cases.

A computer and a phone are essential to getting a job in the modern economy. Unless you live in hillbilly backwaterville, just about any employer is going to be screening against 20-500 other applicants for every job you apply for, if you can't be reached quickly and reliably they are going to pass you up for someone who can, and if you can't do basic things on a computer you are pretty much excluding yourself from 75% of jobs out there.

You guys need to quit listening to so much Rush and other garbage, you are morons if you don't know that the wealthy get far more loopholes and publically backed welfare than the poor do, in addition you are not one iota smarter or more holy or higher quality than the millions who cannot find a job in this @!$%#ty job market. Time to start acting like the christians and saints you make yourselves out to be and quit casting stones at your brothers and sisters who have been dealt a different hand of cards.

In 1960 a house cost 2 years average wages, they now cost 10x average wages.

Your wrong.

As of 6:40 PST, when I saw the vote, the ratio among those who voted was closer to 2 in 5 who had more debt than savings, as opposed to the 1 in 4 statistic msnbc quoted. That's approximately 40% folks!

It just shows who reads MSNBC. It is mostly it is the poor and the financially ignorant(as I sated it is most not all).

In 1960 a house cost 2 years average wages, they now cost 10x average wages.

Your wrong.

http://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-037.pdf
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/census/historic/values.html

Am I? The data says no.

Here is how your still wrong the average home buyer is a married couple and their average house hold income is about 70K . In the 1940's the average household income was 1.7k and the house cost about 3k (during another housing down turn). that in no were near 10x the household purchasing it.

Who said anything about 1940 or now?

1960 average wage $4000-8000

1960 average house $8000-12000, its right there in the census links all cross referenced and easily located for you.

It still is not 10x the household income of the home purchaser. What do you want knight the government to buy poor losers homes? "yea I know you make 7.25 here is a 400K home." This is part of inflation homes increase industry's change. Or should the Government put gas in your fuel tank? Right now home are cheaper then it is to build them. and don't give me this crap about the 1% having more money. the average millionaires in come is 75K-250K.

ArchStanton

Don't worry, some people are doing great!

"...Deutsche Bank, according to the Senate report, went on to sell toxic mortgage-backed securities “without disclosing to potential investors that its global head trader of CDOs had extremely negative views” about the securities,...

ArchStanton,

Thank you for a highly informed and well-written post!

You're missing the point,

Housing went from 2x average income of a single earner to 10x average for single earner. The overall effect is far less affordability.

I prefer people can buy houses for what jobs pay, and nobody has to bail out anyone, but the balance is not there anymore. Factor in the fractional reserve banking where someone pays back the entire amount of real money at stake on the loan in 2 years and yeah I have a problem with banks taking homes.

prefer people can buy houses for what jobs pay, and nobody has to bail out anyone, but the balance is not there anymore.

That is fine raise everyones income by 80,000 over what they now earn and you will see what happens to the price of things.

notsosmart -

"send their wives to work" - are you serious? What era do you live in? My husband makes plenty of money...so do I. I love my job and working. I work because I love what I do, not because I have to or someone 'sent' me to work. Good grief dude!

"send their wives to work"? I suspect you were trying to provoke discussion with that comment. I actually make more than my husband, so I suppose I send him to work.

This is a horrible article that doesn't even make sense. So 75% have more savings than credit card debt (because it states 25% have more credit card debt than savings), and yet in every breakout the numbers are way below 75%. I mean 64% of college grads and 46% of high school and below. Neither of these is close to 75%, so how in the world did they get their numbers.

Brett, 50% of polltakers don't know basic arithmetic...

Well Jen2, you are VERY fortunate to earn more than your husband-women like you seem to be the norm these days, and it's completely ruined things for the common woman.

The unfortunate side of this is that women like you are an expected commodity when a man is out wife shopping. A women who earns an average salary or who wants nothing more than to stay home and take care of her Family is often overlooked by men, and seen as lazy or weak by women like yourself.

Men that marry average women don't have the luxury of buying boy toys or speedboats because they can't afford that kind of lifestyle when they, God forbid, are expected to support their family on their salary alone.

Why man up to your Family responsibilites when you can marry a woman who can outearn you, and then you can have the best of both worlds? When women like you brag that they "send their Husbands to work" what kind of message is that sending to young Girls who aren't career minded and have no plans or desire to support a lazy, selfish man?

Sure, you can turn this around and say a women who wants to stay home and be supported by her spouse is lazy and selfish, and your probably correct with some of these women, by only a small minority. My 2 best friends are full time working Moms with husbands who-you guessed it-are lazy and spoiled, and their wives do everything including bring in the bacon. Both of these women can live on their husband's salary, but choose not to because they would have to give up too much of their material lifestyle.

In today's world, it's 2 incomes needed to pay for those 2 brand new cars, 2 kids, fancy vacations, Ipods, Ipads, Kindles, half million dollar homes with the very best interior furnishings- marble countertops, 4 bathrooms, 4 huge bedrooms, stainless Steel appliances, high end washer and dryer, etc-you get the picture.

This is why 2 people work and are still in debt.

Enough said.

Starlight75

so do I. I love my job and working.

Do you do something significant for society? If not, then in God's name why would you "love" to work????? Work for works sake is the ultimate waste of life.

Radical Centrist - What I do for a living is irrelevant to this conversation (that said, I work for a top financial firm in corporate communications) - however outside of work I serve on the leadership board for two nonprofit/philanthropic organizations supporting the community and children. I also volunteer through my company (teaching kids to save - novel idea I know, working with underprivledged families to promote events that help provide much needed medical and dental care as well as donating time, mney and needed items to various charitable organizations). So, yes - I do love my job...and my community...and my family...

What do YOU do for a living, for your community...and can you say you have more savings than debt? I can. Significantly more.

This is inspirational. A lot of 18-25 yr olds are given everything in life. And when they graduate college they think they're entitled to CEO status. They have no idea what rent, bills, car payments, food costs are!! Then they have kids (or didn't get a college degree and most likely have 2-3 kids by now) and it all goes to @!$%#. This "need it or want it?" philosophy should seriously be taught in middle school!! It's a hard lesson that we should ALL learn.

Lady

I love your philosophy. I practice it and have for years. I get great bargains from folks who do not.

Grandfather

Add cell phones which are my pet peeve.

Thank you very much Alicia1985 and Grannie 4944.

It did help that I had a very strict father who lived through the Great Depression. The drawback was I never went to college because I could not work to put a roof over my head and pay for college. So... I am not rich but when I got married at 38, from all my sacrifies - it was MY bank account that put the down payment to buy our house! The trade-off is my husband works to pay the mortgage and I work from home part-time. I still thrift store shop for both our wardrobes and cut coupons and eat dinner at home - but by still doing that - we can afford to go on vacation if we want! IT'S ALL ABOUT PRIORITIES !

Try doing it now when food costs 3x as much, cars cost 3x as much, gas costs 5x as much, housing costs 10x as much, and education costs 10x as much. It isn't possible for an 18 year old to reliably get by on their own now without some pretty harsh costs that often come back to haunt them for decades. (poor nutrition, bad credit, fees/fines/garnishments)

knightofdespair,

I don't know how old you are but when I graduated high school back in the early 1980's this country WAS in a recession (research the web for the stats). I was earning minimum wage that was severely less than the current wage. Of course cars were cheaper, housing & education BUT I had restraint to buy what I only needed and not indulge in what I could not afford!

Knight, I graduated in high school in 2006 (of which during I worked 30+ hours/week), attended university (10k in loans, the rest paid for out of pocket). I could not get financial aid because I am a white male, so I worked in a dining hall and applied for every academic scholarship possible. Graduated in 2010 without a full-time job, just an hourly internship position. Worked my butt off, cut costs, etc, but paid my student loans in 12 months. The internship ended, but the company I worked for was so impressed with my work ethic and work itself, TRIPLED my salary and made me full-time. Bullcrap that it can't be done. Take some responsibility.

I'm 37 and only went to college because I had a full-tuition scholarship. Now what you learn very quickly is that tuition is the least of your problems in school. Affording books and supplies while keeping a roof over your head is the much trickier part.

Anyway, I worked 3 part-time jobs: a factory job for $8/hour, a retail job for 5.60/hour, and a university job for 4.25/hour (minimum wage at the time.) My staggering earnings amounted to about 15K a year. I kept a roof over my head, bought a car and kept it in good working order, and avoided credit cards like the plague. My parents kicked me a 20 dollar bill here and there, when they could afford it and that was all the "help" I got...and I never expected that much. It was clear that when I turned 18, I'd be out the door and on my own--summers included.

15 years later, I earn a six-figure income, as I have for a few years now, which affords my wife and I the modern luxury of her being a stay-at-home Mom with my two little kids. Yes, we have debt, but we also have plenty of savings. We will never own a home under this arrangment, but I think home-ownership in major markets, such as NY (where we live) is vastly over-rated. And I'm not crying about that or any part of it. I wish this new generation that chooses to live at home until 25,...and the parents that enable such behavior would grow up and get a clue.

knightofdespair - Put on your big boy panties and stop the whining. With your attitude, I can understand why you get no where. You reap what you sow. Grow up and take responsibility. Yes, it CAN be done. And btw, your X costs are BS. Adjusted for inflation, things cost about what they should. Get 3 or 4 or more roommates and split costs. Work 2 jobs. That's what me and my spouse did. We never owned anything but junkers until we were in our thirties. Took in a boarder after we did finally buy a house. Bought used furniture. Spent countless hours learning the finer points of investing. Worked my a$$ off to advance my career. No vacations. Now I earn 6 figures, don't need a smart phone or flat screens or new cars. Still don't take vacations much. Saving and investing. Net worth low 7 figures. I have NO time or use for whiners like you, and I am SICK AND TIRED of paying tens of thousands in taxes for the ever exploding population of free-loaders in this country.

You guys still have your heads up your ass, there is a world of difference between now and then. It probably is 'possible' to do it, but not living on your own, not eating decent food, not juggling a job if you can even get one...

You probably lived with mommy and daddy and borrowed their car, food, and cash and think that means you earned it. There are millions who simply cannot get the loans, income, and jobs to acquire a degree and pay it back, to think otherwise is simply ignorant.

Wow, I read this thread late but had to comment. Don't worry about trying to reason with someone like knightofdespair................... he/she will have one excuse after another so there's no point to it. That's the new thing today............. "poor me" disease. It's an epidemic.

Don't try to explain how you made it in life. Don't try to convince these folks that you didn't inherit anything, or that you sacrificed, or that you worked your way into a high-paying job. People with "poor me" disease will never believe you. They think you left your mother's womb making 100k/year, that you trampled over little children and cute puppy dogs to make your money. Like I said, it's a disease and apparently, there's no cure. You can only treat the symptoms by telling them it's not their fault, everyone else was lucky, or they lied and cheated to get ahead. You can prescribe them a list of excuses for why life's not fair but it will have minimal effect. "Poor me" disease is stronger than bird flu and SARS...... it's the plague of the 21st century.

Poor me! My wife left me with two kids and a mortgage. I was in debt - lost my job. I had lots of medical bills. But I bootstrapped myself - got a job, a divorce and starting taking drastic remedial financial action to get rid of my debt. A few years later I remarried, and together my wife and I worked hard and saved aggressively. We're both retired now, our house is paid off, we have no debt and a net worth exceeding $1M. knightofdespair, you can sit around and whine about your circumstances or you can get off your duff and take control of your destiny. The choice is yours alone.

touche'

Family of five, we netted 28k last year.

It can be done, just gotta plan ahead.

Of course it all depends on the cost of living in your area. We have a 3 bedroom house with a big backyard for $750/month. Some places this house would cost twice that.

It's true, OottRascals. I'm 24, graduated with a bachelors degree 2 years ago & (living the dream) making 30,000. No kids, no house...but I do pay rent, student loans, car payments, phone, cable, insurance..the list goes on. No savings. Pray I can make rent every month but hey...at least I didn't get knocked up when I was a teenager!

MSpieldman

I must congratulate you; you as I am fairly sure you know are one of the few that can claim that.

You are absolutely correct it takes both planning and having the right circumstances.

I'm not one hundred percent sure that we are looking at the same income levels though; as netted usually refers to after tax (with holdings).

While the article itself does not really say...

I do believe I am correct in drawing the conclusion that the author and her contributors are talking gross.

Congratulations to you too alicia1985,

You have taken and are doing everything you can do to move yourself in the right direction.

As long the the economy keeps moving forward and you continued to lord over your own future(as in keep and maintain firm control over your life's direction) I suspect you will be one of the ones that comes out ahead.

Good luck and keep your head up.

It's quite possible that at 30K a year, they may not have jobs that have health insurance. When you are that close to the poverty line, if you get too sick, it's credit card debt that will help get you better.

Oot rascals--sorry, but $30 K is 6K more than my son makes, he lives in an apartment (studio) that sets him back $900 a month, and he is making it just fine.

Of course, he does NOT have Cable tv, He cooks most of his own food, he does not go out drinking, and he does not have kids.

And there's the kicker--people having kids with NO plan on how to pay for that.

When I said "net" I simply meant "the money we actually end up with after everything else is subtracted from the check."

We do have health insurance for me and my wife (the kids are on medicare). This is subtracted from the check and I don't consider it part of the "net." But there's also a mandatory retirement contribution, union dues, and all the other regular things. Some people like to count benefits as part of the salary of the job, but I'm just counting the money we have now, on a month-to-month basis, for paying bills. On paper the salary is $30k, "net" it's $23k.

Can't complain though, really. This is the way we picked to put together our life, and we're doing well enough. Our income is going up, we're not drowning in debt, kids are well-educated at the best local public school.

It just requires a different mindset to get by. Spontaneous spending of money, on lunch out or supermarket impulse buys or flowers for your wife... not allowed, ever. All expenses are planned ahead of time, or they simply do not happen, with the exception of emergencies like car repair.

Awww Alicia...I wasn't going to post to some of the comments although I wanted to, but yours...WOW! I had no choice...

Guess what? I was a teenage mother, never took a dime from "the system, no welfare, no section 8, and whatever else they have" no child support, worked two jobs, went to college, dropped out (paid off my student loans), and had my own apartment at 19. Somehow I manage to make over 100K a year!

I own my own house, my car is only 5 years old (but I paid it off in a year) have minimal credit card debt, a ton of savings, I buy what I want, vacation when I want, have excellent credit, and I just simply don't worry about money. Why? Because I don't have to!!! The best thing is? I do it on my own as that teenage mom you spoke of. And all this working a 9-5. Did I mention I make over 100k a year? And I was a teenage mom? Get it now?

Sucks to have been a teenage mom like me. Don't you feel sorry for me? Oh yeah, for all those that will question it was done through hard work, not a sense of entitlement, like you Alicia seem to have because you were not a "teenage mom." I went with a "non-entitlement" mentality, and it worked wonders for me.

Now....back to the beach and my Pina Colada.....happy endings!

Momaid,

I sense pride in your posting, and that's good as it infers that your son is standing on his own two feet as it were.

I wish him continued good luck and continued employment growth; because at $11.54 per hour and even with his self imposed austerity I seriously doubt he has had the expandable cash to build much if any of a financial safety net.

Which is what this article is saying is sadly absent from most family portfolios and then uses the 30k as a point of comparison.

Working woman, I admire your accomplishments!

However, you must be careful not to fall into the mental trap of assuming that "because you can do it, so can anybody, if they just work hard enough." I've seen far too many people who did everything right, and worked hard, knew the right people, went to the right schools, and had talent and aspirations... and didn't make it. And they keep trying until they die... and never have anything to show for it.

I also know a lot of idiots who do everything wrong. Most have awful lives, and its their own fault, but one just stumbled into an awesome 80k/year job, spending most of his time sitting on his behind waiting to be called. Once or twice a month he gets called to go fix something. He did nothing to deserve being paid to sit at home playing video games, but that's how his life ended up.

Still, it comes down to odds I suppose. If you do everything right and work hard, you probably have a good 75% chance of an awesome life. And if you goof off and do nothing, you have a 75% chance of an awful life. But there are enough exceptions to make it look, to a casual observer, like nothing you do matters.

Working Women 2012, tell me again.. you make over 100K a year? That's so impressive.

Sounds like someone is bitter about being a teenage mom. Obviously you took my words to imply that I'm better than you. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that I'm young & broke just like everyone else....and it would be 10X harder with a kid.

But your story is inspirational Working Women 2012. Maybe I should have been a teen mother and I'd make 100K a year. Dang, if I could have just worked harder to get pregnant younger. Yeah, I'd miss all the college experiences, I couldn't just buy anything I wanted for myself (selfish), have opportunities to move (kids need stability, right?), drink recklessly on the weekends (we're all guilty)...no those things aren't important.

If I had been a teenage mother like you, Working Woman 2012, I could be making 100K! Because that's usually what happens.

If you're doing it right it is one and the same.

Holy cow, Independent, you spend $12K a year on food? Wow! Can you invite me over for dinner? I'm getting tired of soup, tuna fish and fried egg sandwiches.

Do the math pal; that's about $8/person per day - so we're not talking filet mignon and lobster here.

$250/week for a family of four is considered pretty "normal" these days. Obviously varies by local....and we're not giving out medals to the people who get by on $50 a week for a family of eight, so save it for someone who's impressed.

Independent and Radical - are you freakin kidding me. $1000 a month for food!!! I have a family of 4. We spend about $350 a month (more in December granted, but sometimes less other months) and we eat VERY well and nutritiously. But then again, we don't buy a cart load of junk and over processed convenience food. We actually COOK meals at home. What a novel idea, huh.

Jac,

So do we Ours is 350 and we even buy shrimp. Mothers day was steak and crab legs.

we don't buy a cart load of junk and over processed convenience food. We actually COOK meals at home. What a novel idea, huh.

It is funny how cheap rice is and you put it in meals it makes them go further.

Emergency savings mean liquid capital that you can easily access (definition of liquid) to cover your living expenses in case you somehow lost your income source(s). It used to be that you should have around 6 months worth, but that has been adjusted upward.

@Zeke: I've always found that the average is surpisingly... average.

Except the community where I live, which has the highest concentration of millionaires in the country (11.7% of the population). Not surprisingly, it also goes with the highest per capita incidence of PhDs. I'd bet that most of the people here carry little/no debt beyond mortgages.

I don't know if you've ever seen the show "Eureka!," but despite the claims it's not modeled after here, it most definitely is.

You are a good man. It takes a great deal of self discipline to focus on long term goals and not be dissuaded by short term needs. I hope it all pays off for you.

I was 34, working full-time with a wife and four children when I finished my M.B.A

Worked two jobs after graduating to put y wife, who had supported me so ardently, through college as well.