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Jim Seida / msnbc.com
Vanessa and Chris Christman love their jobs as law librarians but struggle with student loan debt.
ROSEVILLE, Calif. — Here’s one thing that’s obvious about Vanessa and Chris Christman: They love their jobs as public law librarians for the state of California.
Here’s another: They don’t love the more than $150,000 in combined student loan debt they are carrying and struggling to pay off even though their joint income exceeds $100,000 a year.
“We are swimming in it,” Vanessa Christman said.
The Christmans are among the many Americans who have sought out careers that often require a lot of education but don’t guarantee huge pay in return.
The weak economy and sluggish job market have made it even more difficult for some people to find good jobs in fields such as library sciences, social work and education. Meanwhile, many are facing the prospect of having to pay down tens of thousands of dollars in debt they took on to finance their advanced training.
“It’s the kind of perfect storm problem,” said Debra Stewart, president of the Council of Graduate Schools, which represents more than 500 colleges and universities.
In general, Stewart notes, taking on debt for undergraduate and graduate school often makes sense because the more education a person has the more they can usually expect to earn.
But as more people like the Christmans struggle to pay off mountains of student loan bills, some are questioning whether student borrowing is getting out of control.
About 73 percent of master’s degree students graduated with student loan debt in 2008, according to the College Board. Among those who took out student loans, the average debt was $51,950, according to College Board data.
In all, Americans owe about $865 billion in student loan debt, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York’s latest figures, exceeding credit card debt.
Christman, 30, got her master’s degree in library science from Drexel University in 2008, just as the economy was beginning to take a deep dive.
It took her more than two years to land a full-time job at the El Dorado County Law Library in Placerville, Calif. At one point during that arduous job search, she was working four temporary jobs to support herself and her son, now 5, plus volunteering in her field to keep her skills sharp.
She couldn’t afford health insurance for herself, so until recently she wasn’t able to get regular treatment for a thyroid condition.
Her job as a law librarian pays about $44,000 a year and doesn’t offer health insurance. She gets coverage through her husband, whom she married in October.
“I do make a pretty decent salary as far as public law librarians go, but a good majority of that goes to student loan payments,” Vanessa said.
The median wage for all librarians is $54,500, according to the most recent data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Chirstman estimates that a little more than half of her take-home pay goes toward paying off the approximately $105,000 she owes in student loans. Some months, she isn’t able to make all the payments.
“Our priority is always on paying the mortgage and then after that eating food, and then after that I don’t consistently make my student loan payments. It’s just impossible for me to do,” she said.
Chris Christman, 46, is also a law librarian, at the Sparks Law Library of Placer County, Calif.
Besides a master’s degree in library science he also has a law degree. Although he received his last degree in 1995, he still has about $56,000 of his approximately $100,000 in student loan debt left to pay off. He makes about $75,000 a year.
The law libraries, which are funded by court fees, once were used primarily by lawyers. But now both Christmans say many of their clients are regular people who can’t afford lawyers and are trying to navigate the legal system themselves.
Jim Seida / msnbc.com
Vanessa Christman
One day in December, the stream of people who came through the doors of Vanessa’s small library were trying to fight foreclosures, file for divorce, deal with creditors or resolve child custody issues on their own. Some were seeking help from a legal clinic that is offered there every week.
The Christmans say they find the work incredibly rewarding.
“I like the job that I have. We help people every single day, and people are so thankful that there’s someone there,” Chris said.
Still, Chris says it is frustrating to feel he may not end up as financially secure as his parents, who were both teachers.
“Growing up, I was middle class, and I (figured that I) would do at least as well as my parents. I mean, I was more educated,” he said. “But I don’t know, it just doesn’t seem like it worked out that way.”
It’s a concern that’s being echoed in other fields as well.
Tracy Whitaker, director of the National Association of Social Workers’ Center for Workforce Studies, said it can be discouraging for social workers to realize that they owe more in student loan debts than they will earn in their entire first year on the job.
In a survey of the organization’s members, conducted a few years ago, nearly half of the respondents said their debt load was “unreasonable,” while about two in 10 called it “unmanageable.”
“We’re pretty concerned about the kinds of debt that social workers are graduating with,” Whitaker said. “That debt load is considerably different from 20 or 30 years ago.”
Still, Whitaker said it’s hard to say whether the cost of education is keeping people from pursuing a master’s degree in social work, a key stepping stone in that career.
She noted that most people don’t go into a field like social work expecting to make a lot of money.
“Social workers are really drawn to this kind of work, and so sometimes the work overrides some other factors,” she said. “We see the need, we see the ability to intervene, we see the ability to make a difference and not always the dollar signs first.”
Related:
Yes, college degree has value - try $1 million
Congrats 2010 grads! Your debt load is heaviest
Leave a Comment:
Its American's own fault that they pay this much in student loans. Get off your ass like every other democracy and take to the streets. Its obvious that its not right, so do something about it. Its much easier than people think.
Ryanwill -- I somewhat agree with you, but this world is so much different than the world that we were able to raise our kids in. Many today are spoiled rotten by their parents. Also, times have changed -- cost of staples are crazy high - wages are suffering. I think these young folks are going to have to get creative in todays times. When my husband and I started out we lived in what would be considered a "shack" in today's terms. Today, if our children lived in the shack they would be living in a very unsafe neighborhood. I think kids are just going to have to live at home longer - roommates for life, etc... I hate to see our country change so much. The times I grew up in were "if you quit your job one day....there was another job down the road."
Here is the problem. She went to Drexel and got her degree in WHAT?!? Does one truly need a masters degree to be a librarian? Also, did she check into the salary of librarians before setting out to attain this illustrious degree? If she had, she may have realized that the tens of thousands of dollars in hock that is roughly level with her eyeballs right now was NOT worth it. Student loans are a crock and a ripoff, and now she is learning the hard way that maybe it wasn't worth it after all.
I worked full time for two years and lived with my parents as a young adult in order to graduate from nursing school debt free. I recomment others do that. I know kids who who took out massive loans, and still partied in Mexico every spring break - not me, I worked two jobs...not as much fun, but certainly better financial planning. Also, if you are going to take out huge loans, maybe library science is not the most lucrative? I would advise them to buy cars they can afford to pay cash for, even if it is a $1000 clunker, hold on the cable tv, and live on one salary, and use the other to clear the debt. Chances are they have already gone into more debt for luxuries!
Sorry,
But I do not feel sorry at all for them. First, no one told them to pick a field of study that would not cover the debt for the education. They could have easily become a doctor or an engineer. Second, there are many programs to help, I am think national guard (etc). Yes I know many do not want to do the military thing or even agree with it, but you are going to pay one way (military) or the other (debt). So please do not cry about the choices you made. Last, they are making very good income for this time in our country, REALLY, YOU ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT 100K a year. From here it looks like they are doing good.
It is stupid to go to college and take out large loans for a field that has only modest incomes. If you do that, you get what you deserve. If you want to study Art History, then don't take out loans, because you are very unlikely to get a job in that field, and if you do, it won't pay well for many years.
Take out loans for fields, which are essentially trades with high educational requirements: Doctors, nurses, lawyers, architects, accountants, etc. Those fields will allow you to work, get paid well and pay off your loans.
I think it's fine to study subjects that won't lead to high salaries, but students have to understand the obligation they are taking on. Too many treat student loan money as a "freebee," and it's not.
The interest rate on student loans is reasonable. No one is automatically entitled to free graduate school education. If you take out the loan, you will have to pay it back. If you allow the interest to be capitalized, you'll be paying interest on the interest!
Read the information provided with the student loan. It tells you how much you'll have to pay back if you take 10 years to pay it off. It's usually half again as much as the original loan! So if you borrowed $40K, you'll have to pay back $60K. This is just how loans work--mortgage loans included. Yes, this is a real debt, and it will never go away.
God bless America
Great advice !!!!!Great post
If you don't know enough simple math to figure out how much debt you're going to to build, and if you'll be able to pay for it on your expected salary, then you don't belong in college. Just move into your moms basement, and enjoy your career washing dishes at Denny's.
Kevin -
Architects?
Comedy gold, pal!
Clearly you know nothing about the field or the job market.
Let me fill you in:
It's terrible right now. And pay? You're lucky to earn what these LAW LIBRARIANS earn!
Loans only pay off for attorneys and doctors. Everyone else - it's just another burden.
A college education has become an industry. As an industry it reminds me of the Japanese auto industry of the 70s and early 80s. Produced lots and lots of cheap unreliable cars.
The cost of college education (any level, for that matter) has risen faster than health care! The government is blasting health care costs, but allowing the gouging of public and college education alone!
Yes. Yes you do. Especially if you work for the state or fed government. Public sector usually requires more education than the private sector.
peteMT, I did not realize the salary for architects was so low, so I stand corrected, but the basic point holds: Get a degree that translates directly to a job with excellent pay so you can pay off your loans....pretty simple really.
Ryan has a point. The folks that take out these loans also live and subside of these loans for car, housing and food. Now if a student chosses to be a professioinal student and has lived off the taxpayers for 10 plus years, they made that desicision, get a job. The student has to decide if there is a market for a advance degree field before they start. I dont feel sorry for anyone that miss planned thier deqree, some poor stiff digging ditches and has IQ OF 55 IS PAYING TAXES for you to scam the system. And many of over educated idiots make fun of that poor dumb stiff for doing his job in the real world.
to people saying "dont pick a field that has so much student loan debt and doesnt pay enough in salary"
you do realize no one would become teachers...right?
ah, what a great nation this would become...perhaps addressing the fact that cost of education keeps going up 10% every yera (and makes no sense) would be a better course of action for our nation...
rather than telling all the people who NEED HIGHER EDUCATION FOR LOW PAYING JOBS to just refuse to take them.
we are heading fast and furious towards 3rd world nation status with this mindset.
I DONT GET WHY SOME OF YOU ARE HELLBENT ON GETTING THERE ASAP.
Kevin - or how about the low paying jobs, dont require a college degree?
you do realize, we need people to work those low paying jobs...right?
so your "solution" would simply be horrible to our nation, culture and way of life.
I'm sorry they they have debt, but THEY CHOSE TO TAKE OUT LOANS. Why are so many people who CHOSE TO BORROW MONEY whining about the "burden" of the debt. Then you shouldn't have taken the debt out in the first place.
I'm sorry but same goes for people who bought way more house than they could afford, used tricks like adjustable rate mortgages (why in the WORLD would anyone do THAT?), then complain and whine when their payment went up $500 a month then they get foreclosed upon for NOT PAYING THE DEBT THEY PROMISED TO REPAY.
Then everybody beats up the big, bad, banks for heartlessly foreclosing on a property they LENT MONEY for someone to buy - but decided to breach the contract by NOT REPAYING IT.
Moral of the story? STOP BUYING STUFF (including education) THAT YOU CANNOT AFFORD and STOP BLAMING EVERYONE BUT YOURSELF.
Or Jessica-1170252, it would change the value of such jobs out on the open market. I stand by my statements, and if someone decides to take on such debt with no good way to pay it off, who do you want to blame? No one twists your arm.
People are so stupid on this issue and so out of touch it is frightening...
There are a few factors at work here:
1) Anybody with a pulse can get the loans, which means 50 million students artificially driving up the 'value' of a degree
2) Due to outsourcing and technology, we're short at least 50 million good paying middle class jobs, which is the biggest reason most of these people are going to school, to try to find one of the decent jobs left.
3) Starting wages are down, lifetime wages are down. When a student eventually acquires a 'decent' job, by the time you add in the student loans they are often doing the same or worse as previous generations high school graduate job.
4) Without a degree most people are faced with direct competition with the millions of others with basic cheap worthless skills who are lucky to break 35k a year.
The answer is not to saddle everyone in debt just because they are trying to survive, and no the students are not really to blame either - they are being punished for attempting to better themselves and do the same exact thing their parents told them all their life. School should be free, it is vital to the future of our country to have a well rounded and educated population. We can't and shouldn't all be doctors or lawyers, but we shouldn't all be fry cooks either. Despite many right wing 'experts', we really do need people skilled in anthropology, architecture, arts and music, history, etc.
They had no choice... Same with housing.
Many were speculating, but many more were looking simply to survive and got caught in loan bidding wars and debt traps they had no real way to avoid. Not everyone can live in their parents basement for half their life to wait out market problems like you can.
No way to avoid? How about "geeze, maybe I can't repay $50,000 in loads and I should borrow the money?"
Like I say, not everyone can live in their parent's basement for 30 years to wait for the prices to be affordable - we're all very impressed.
People need to start using common sense when selecting colleges and majors. Drexel is an expensive private school. The husband has TWO advanced degrees and makes $75000 per year.
Here is how you graduate without debt:
1) Pass as many AP classes as you can. You can receive college credit for AP classes at many universities.
2) Work summers and weekends in high school and SAVE YOUR MONEY!
3) Have a plan for a major BEFORE YOU START COLLEGE!
4) Freshman and Sophomore years at your local community college. Know the requirements for the school you will transfer to. All your courses will transfer and you can finish your junior and senior years at a university.
5) Live at home junior and senior year and commute to your state school if at all possible. Don't pay $9000 for deluxe student housing with work out rooms and flat screen tvs.
6) GRADUATE ON TIME!!!! You must get your degree completed in 4 years.
When students and parents revolt against $52000 per year educations, things will get better. Most of the cost increases are due to more administrators and more expensive dorm rooms. There has been no increase in professors at most universities. In most cases, your education at a CC will be better than the classes taught by TAs at a university anyway.
It ain't sexy or glamorous, but you can do it.
BTW, get a degree in accounting, engineering, finance, computers, nursing. Pick the right major and you will always be able to make a living.
Couldn't agree more, Gary. I just think that people are not nearly careful enough when taking on a student loan. College is mistakenly seen as a 'have to' and given what most people study, it hardly deserves a loan. At least not with the cost of college these days.
What bothers me, too, is parents who pressure their kids into going to college, then press them to get student loans. If you want to pressure your kid into going to college, you should take the loan out yourself.
and who should pay for this "school should be free".... oh yes, I forgot.... more taxes
You guys are missing the point... a degree should never have been tied to profit at any cost to begin with.
There are really only 2 factors that matter in this equation...
Millions of people see it as vital to middle class or better lifestyle, and millions will pay whatever the cost is to acquire it (or at least do so on paper). This is the same reason that housing got so far past affordable or real asset worth and it will only get worse in the future.
Entitlement mentality run rampant. College ain't for everyone. Back in the day if you wanted to go to college you either had the money to begin with, joined the military and accessed GI bill benefits, or you worked hard and saved up the money to go to school and continued to work while going to school. By not taking the easy way out, loans, you end up with a very highly motivated college student who takes advantage of the learning opportunities at college and what is produced after 4 years is a highly valuable commodity. This weeds out a lot of individuals who's only motivation for going to school is that they don't have to get a job for 4 years. FYI, I don't have a degree and have been highly successful in a field where 90% of my peers do. The crap that is being produced from college industrial complex is astounding. Kids coming out who can't write or talk properly expecting a good paying job to be handed to them.
It is not the job of colleges to get you a high paying job. If you spend tens of thousands of dollars studing something in college you enjoy but not something that will get you work after college why is that anyone's problem but your own. I went to a two year school for trades, I did this because the cost was low and I couldn't afford to be in school for 4 - 5 years. I hate my job , but the pay is decent so I suck it up. These people want to spend time getting a worthless education and then want me to help them pay for it?
This article probably is an opener to get sympathy to forgive student loan debt, something Obama wants to do...and free college education. Our public schools and colleges are nothing but liberal indocrination instutions. They've got third graders singing "I am happy to be the 99%", teachers telling students we will no longer recognize Thanksgiving and Columbus Day, Universities teaching OWS classes!! And if this country were to bestsow a free college education, there would be unlimited indoctrination, just what this admin wants. It is the academia SYSTEM and cost of that system that should be changed and reformed. What about all the people like ME who took out loans to start their own business????? It was 10 years before I could get a loan for a car, or upgrade from a tiny box home to a larger home, because I had to use my home as collateral, as well as take out loans for the business. I was not clamoring for the taxpayer to forgive MY loans, nor did I EXPECT them to. After 10 years of living frugally (sometimes could not afford a turkey for Thanksgiving), I could then slowly live more comfortably.
My son, a very good student but very, very social, was frankly too immature to allow him to go off to college the 1st two years. So he stayed local and went to the community college and grew up a bit. BTW, he was always required to work every summer and pay for his own car, and insurance. He went to the community college for FREE since he got scholarships. The next two years we paid for, but it was reasonable since he stayed in-state and graduated with a science degree. He got a job immediately, but then decided to pursue graduate work which was paid for through grants. He lived at home during this period and worked full-time as well. It certainly was not the easy route but he graduated with NO DEBT. He owns two businesses today. I am not saying it was all an easy going, but what he also had was two parents that partnered with his ambitions. So he had us for mentors. That is what is missing a lot today with broken homes. A lot of bad decisions are being made because kids just do not know what a good plan looks like. For the most part the X and Y generations have been sheltered which has been very detrimental.
I work and see a lot of current college students today. It is rare for me to talk with a student that has picked a good program, and that they have a well-thought out plan. I see lots of liberal art degrees that will get them nowhere. Once upon a time, any degree was a step up. Today it is not.
If you are going to pick a field that will never pay well, you simply cannot take on debt as these examples in this article have done. Some things are out of reach.
Obama is once again wrong about student loans. He just wants to open up the door further for more debt without stopping to think who is being offered these loans and if that loan is a good investment for the person as well as the nation. Any degree will no longer cut it.
Within my family, the graduates with math and science degrees have done well. Those with history or art degree have not fared nearly as well.
By and large, most of us live lives that are largely the product of the cumulative decisions we've made in our lives. Where to go to school, what courses to take, whom to marry, where to live, how much money to borrow, what to buy and not buy, whether to drink and/or smoke, whether to work hard in school or blow it off, etc. Essentially an infinite number of choices.
The people in this story CHOSE to go to an expensive school, CHOSE to borrow a ton of money to get through it, CHOSE majors that require lots of education with lower salaries, and CHOOSE to live in California (an expensive state). Now somehow they are "victims" of a system that conspires against them?
Too many Americans today live just like this couple, making decisions that don't make financial sense and yet somehow expecting everything to be okay in spite of their bad decisions. I see people borrowing too much money to buy a house bigger than they need. People buying a brand new car they can't afford because their egos won't allow them to buy a used one. People spending outrageous sums on their kids to prove to the other parents (and their kids) that they are successful.
This hits at the core difference between the liberal philosophy and the conservative philosophy. The liberal philosophy says that government and society should provide a fallback and keep well-intentioned people from being ruined by their own bad choices, while conservatives would prefer to foster an environment where people are encouraged to make wise decisions and then prosper (or sink) with the consequences. These are obviously pretty smart people, but they are reaping the "rewards" of some pretty dumb life decisions.
There are no high paying jobs, that is the problem. Nobody is making ends meet anymore with the high cost of education and good luck telling 50-80 million generation x and y kids to flip fries or cold call people the rest of their lives and hopefully they can make ends meet on $8/hr.
There is a certain value that our society gets out of having a population that knows basic (unmarketable) things about science, history, math, arts, etc... But somehow I doubt most of the people here know anything about that and that is a good part of why our country is in the mess it is in today.
Colleges charge more and more every year and people keep paying it. You want to make a difference, when you become one of those people looking to hire, look at the individual not the education. Colleges are getting more worthless every year. The quality of education is getting worse as the cost is getting higher. We are stuck in a society who thinks you have to be a college graduate to be worth anything. Most jobs end up training the person anyway so why don't we save the cost of college.
Hmm see I didn't live at home and I ended up paying at least $30,000 in rent during school... Not everyone wants to or can live with their folks to avoid the student debt and not everyone wants to be a telemarketer or a lawyer or a doctor. Society is a fabric and for half of society the ability to find a home, get an education, and survive is not possible without getting stuck in tens of thousands of dollars of debt.
Yes there are high paying jobs, Chemical Engineers, Rocket Scientist, biological engineering, software engineering, oil and gas engineer, international accounting , ect....
The problem is jobs that pay a lot of money usually suck and take a lot of difficult education to get (which is why they have to pay so much to get someone.) There is only so much need for Liberians and when you have more graduates then you have openings you create a situation where they can pay less because they have so many to choose from. When you go to college you need to take all of this into account, and parents shoudn't indulge their kids with paying for worthless educations. I don't know how many of friends in college wanted to be teachers "not because of the pay" but because they wanted to "help kids". Now that they have bills and families of their own all they do is bitch about their pay as if they didn't know what they were getting into.
LOGIC...Well said. I have a business, and I found that anyone with a high school education BEFORE 1975 has better writing and English skills than a college BA with business degree. Also, those who did not attend colleges (merely liberal indoctrination institutions) had a MUCH BETTER work ethic.
It was found in some careers, those that just started working right out of high school, ended up making more money, in the long run.
And, as I had to get loans and use my house for collateral to start my business, it was 10 years before I found myself with less debt to improve my standard of living. Should the taxpayer have been responsible for the loans to improve MY CAREER?????
BTW...those teachers compensation is not too shoddy. It was found the average made over $50 an hour. They KNEW their actual working days would be almost one third LESS than the general population. They chose the career to have a schedule that is perfect to raise their families, yet still make a decent wage PLUS a utopian pension with lifetime healthcare. Now, what more can you ask for???????//
Each of which requiring a degree that will take up half of your income for 10-20 years afterwards.
So What!! I had to take loans to start my own business and mortgage my home that took me over 10 years to see the light of day to advance MY career!!!!! Should you have financed and forgiven MY debt?????? Why should a college grad be held MORE on a pedastal than a hardworking private enterprise business owner that contributes to the GDP and pays taxes, AND provides JOBS???
Half of your INCOME????? You are starting to exaggerate a little to much. I friend of mine who became a rocket scientist after hearing the joke when he was a kid "you're no rocket scientist" and thought he would like to be a rocket scientist, makes A LOT of money. We are friends so I don't ask the exact amount but he has a $400,000+ home with two kids and a wife who doesn't work. They take vacations and drive decent vehicles. Maybe he is still paying off school loans but I'm sure his monthly bill is not enough to cause any pain.
So, we're surprised that an education costs money? Then we're surprised that we have to pay that cost back?
WOW!!!!
When did this all start? Oh wait, it's always been this way. The problem is we are graduating illiteracy from our public school systems and then encouraging these same students to go to college. I guarantee you most graduating high school seniors have very little knowledge about financing their futures. Perhaps the outrage should be that our children are NOT getting the foundation in education they need.
Most Americans read at an 8th grade level. Our high school graduates continuously under-perform in the bottom 1/3 in math, science and reading compared to other OECD nations. It's hard enough to choose a career at 18 let alone when you have a difficult time filling out the college application form.
Read some of today's graduates papers. I cringe when I see they are incapable of using - there, their and they're - properly in a sentence. Ask most graduates what 20% of 440 is without a calculator, smoke starts coming out of their ears. Ask them to name one of their Senators and they stare at you blankly for 5 minutes with a nervous twitch. However, challenge them to a game of "Madden NFL 2011" or "Gears of War 3" and they'll kick your a$$!
Face it, most of our youth are unable to continue in higher education. This is not their fault. Many are only going to be capable of trade-school levels of education. Which is fine, as long as they understand this. We need heating-and-cooling specialists just as much as we need doctors and lawyers. Obtaining a piece of paper with a mountain of debt, after 4 years or more, is not always in their best interest.
Now, our next concern must be the cost that our colleges and universities charge for the alleged education they provide. For the past 30 years the cost of a college education has significantly outpaced inflation and, yes, even health care costs. The biggest price hikes came in the public sector. An 8.7 percent increase for in-state tuition at public two-year schools, and an 8.3 percent jump in the price of four-year public institutions, for in-state students. I wonder, have cost-of-living raises followed these increases?
Our students need to be educated BEFORE they decide on a career that requires higher education. Without a solid foundation we're just graduating more misinformed or ill-informed students that have no idea what they want to do, the cost involved and the responsibility to repay the cost.
Student loans are a privilege, not a right. Especially in our current economic collapse, the future is very unsure for many of our graduates. When we had a strong vibrant economy many jobs were available in the private sector. Many jobs that didn't even require a higher education were available, that is no longer the case today. Graduating more and more higher educated students without job prospects being available is contradictory. Education needs and economic strength go hand-in-hand. Until we create a vibrant economy as we once had no matter of higher education will help. This economy must be based on strong free-market principles and long term employment assurances, not bubbles and easy credit.
We have 25 million Americans under/unemployed. Many of these have higher educations. How can the young graduates of today expect to be able to compete against those already without work with the same qualifications? They can't. Our economic future is bleak due to decades of public and private sector malinvestment in our nation. Until we develop a strong economic policy that allows all market sectors to once again expand these types of stories will be commonplace.
Being an 80% consumption/service sector economy will never create the wealth, prosperity and standard of living we have become accustomed to. We need radical and drastic changes in our criminal tax system, restrictive regulations, unfair trade policies, union intervention and government intrusion in the private sector that generates the revenues we need. No amount of education and subsequent debt it incurs will help without a strong economy.
Win the future? HA! We can't even explain our present economic goals. Slapping more payroll tax cuts and extending unemployment benefits is NOT a plan, it's just kicking the can further and further down the road. We ARE in a global economy. The European Union will collapse under the weight of the ridiculous sovereign debt it has created with its ever expanding social programs and lack of economic planning. Our economy is intimately tied to Europe and Asian market forces, when they collapse, so will we. Unless we admit our current system is significantly flawed these types of stories will continue for years.
We need a strong long term economic plan that will require significant sacrifice. The question is, are we willing?
knightofdespair,
BS, there are tons of high paying jobs. Your problem is that you think everyone qualifies for one because they have a pulse. Your attitude is the epitome of entitlement. This country was founded on the principals of equality of opportunity not outcome. You keep whining about some people not being able to live with their parents while going to school. So what? Get a job, get an apartment, and go to school at night. I feel sorry for you.
My son got an engineering degree in 4 years (probably less than one of these fancy librarian degrees) and a very good paying job after graduation. The company I work for hires a lot of computer engineers with the same 4-year degree. It's less a matter of how many degrees, but more a matter of WHAT degree you have. Four years invested in the right major will set you up well, while 4 years of "liberal art studies" will make life difficult.
And didnt I read where the Obama administration was limiting student loan payments to 10% of your salary (and the remainder to be forgiven after like 20 years). Did that pass? I hope not, because that just encourages MORE borrowing (with a lower payback rate).
What WILL help is the influx of online degrees we are now seeing. Many simply can't afford GOING to college, but will find they can afford attending college online. This will put price pressure on traditional brick and mortar universities and force them to respond. The free market at work.
Well said, Freedom Rings!!!
Read the entire link..copy and paste one or the other
INDOCTRINATION STORY by Christine Rousselle
http://thecollegeconservative.com/2011/11/29/indoctrination-story/
//thecollegeconservative.com/2011/11/29/indoctrination-story/
"""Why I can tell you all about gay sex, but I can’t define the word “predicate.”
I have a confession to make: I have no idea what a predicate is.
My excuse for this fact is that I am a graduate of Scarborough High School, the public high school of Scarborough, Maine. The English department there (save Erin Blain, Jon York, and Gerry Hebert) is notoriously awful. It has gotten to the point where it is being ridiculed on Facebook. The Facebook group “You Know Your From Scarborough If…” includes the line, “If you can make it through Scarborough High School and still not know how to properly use ‘you’re.’”""""
continue reading the rest in the link...an eye opener
They love the job but hate the loan that made it possible? I love my house but hate the loan that made it possible. I love my car but hate the loan that made possible.
They simply want someone else to pay for their education, to push off the expense on to someone else. And , as to their misguided expectation to do better than their parents: There are no guarantees in life. I bet they live at a level far above their parents. My parents scrimped and saved. People now don't do that. I bet they have big screen TVs, cable , cell phones, multiple new cars, go out to eat.
Gary,
Your's was the best post os this thread. I'm sick of these liberals wanting everything handed to them. Yes, most of Europe has free college tuition and look at the shape those socialist countries are in. I own a software company in Florida but I also own offices in 5 European countries. The Germans for one, are sick of folks in their 30's working on their 4th free college degree.
A revolution is starting in Europe. And it's become more like the US! Man o man! I will LOLOLOL! at all the libbies here in the States when their beloved Europe turns it's back on socialism.
Liberals! God love em!
Don't blame liberals more than conservatives, that is naive. Yes, there's the liberal who wants everything handed to them. But please, you really want to leave out the 'conservative' who is a spoilt brat and wants their parents/corporation/whatever to pay off their loan too?
Thinking conservativers know there's a whole branch of entitled, faux enraged, ludicrous, claiming to be right wing 'conservatives' who want the same benefits. Thinking libs and cons should shun those who can't think straight from their own party, and sorry, nobody's little favorite political group is bette than the other side when it comes to this.
Isn't it nice to see posts that completely show they don't read other replies? :P
Just another example of a job that you should not need a masters to do. A law librarian is nothing more than a glorified stock clerk and cashier. 54K for someone to put the books on the shelves and keep track of them. Please!
Oh Wavesofgrain, take off your tinfoil hat. To respond to your argument about taking a loan out for your business. . . if the cost of operating your business were too high, if it failed, if the economy sunk your business. . . you have ways out of it. You can sell the business, negotiate for a lower interest rate or amount with your creditors, or even claim bankruptcy. You can't compare that to a student loan, which you can't get rid of. What I get out of this whole story is that student loans and the cost of education are skyrocketing, while income isn't rising.
I'd also love to know what school district employs teachers at $50.00 an hour. I have several friends and relatives who are teachers. . . I'm sure they would love to find out where they can make that much.
Oh, wait. . . but I'm a product of the public school system. . . I must not know what I'm talking about because I have been so brainwashed I'm incapable of having my own thoughts. Please.
By the way. . . I do know what a predicate is.
I don't know, alwaysanother, I read your post and all I can think about when I read your posts is PETA member. You might want to consider you sound like more like the far left than you lead on. Kind of betting here you are just pretending to be from the right.
All variants of the same damn argument... Well good luck if you think me or millions of other 20-30 year olds are going to gladly pay out hundreds or thousands of dollars a month for degrees that have no value.
The plain truth is for at least half there is no way you can make them pay, they simply do not have the income to pay back the loans and they never will, meanwhile every year colleges are jacking up the rates another 8% and more students are taking out loans that will never get paid back.
We can either proactively do something NOW, or we can wait around another 5-10 years for this asset bubble to pop. Regardless of how you feel about people paying these loans back, without good paying jobs and cheap housing it will never happen.
I don't know why I even read these stories about people who make $100k+ a year, and claim they can't pay their bills. No more--I'm going to ignore them from now on! Why is it that I can bring in about $18,000 a year, pay my mortgage (and all my other bills) on time, and still have food--WITHOUT any government assistance? I believe it's because I pay attention to what I spend and where I spend it...it's called "having a budget", and sticking to it!
Where do you live??? AND do you realize the VAST divide in the cost of living from one area to another? We are talking about California here, not Mississippi.
jannah, it's simple. If payments exceed income, one has a problem. Just because someone's income looks high to you doesn't mean that person can handle their debt. It's the sad truth. People can spiral into trouble at any income level.
Also, I'm curious--where do you live, as Will asked? I don't know anyone who brings in $18K who can qualify for a mortgage... unless it's through a federal program. If you are indeed making it on that much without any help, then my hat is off to you.
Yes JayEll, it is simple. If your payments exceed your income you have a problem.
But one little thing you left out. It is your choice to take on payments. Most of the people I know that complain about their high payments have at least one, maybe two car payments. A $120 cable/internet package. A $100 cell phone plan.
You're income may be fixed. But if you're living beyond your means, then it's YOUR fault. You're not poor until you've shut off the cable, internet, and cell phone. Sold the car, and moved into a smaller, cheeper place, and you still have a hard time paying the bills.
Everyone thinks that they're entitled to everything that everyone else has. Well, sorry Charlie, you have to earn it.
If you spent $150,000 on college to get a $20 an hour job, then you're gonna have to learn some budgeting skills, and learn to do without some things until you get your head above water.
I agree, Jannah. These people are in a financial bind because they have made poor decisions. Two people should be able to live well AND pay their bills on the combined salary of these two. I've worked in a library-related field for 30+ years, and I know. I also got my master's degree from a state university that I could afford without having to go into debt.
I also note that there is a child involved - another poor decision by someone who obviously can't afford to support herself.
Jointly they make $100K. Thats 50k each. Decent money? yes. Great money? No.
And Obama wants people like them to spread the wealth and tax their income more and more.
These people are looking for their own free ride, the forgiveness of their college loans. I say...NO! I went into debt to further my career...but NOT by any academia tuition gouging university. I started my own business! Should the taxpayer forgive MY debt that furthered my career?
If your earning potential at work isn't more than your assumed cost of education, then perhaps you need to look for a different career. If you love your job making what you do, but are saddled by vast debt to get that job you can sum it up in either 1 of 3 outcomes:
1 - Suck it up. You actually enjoy your work which is something that most people can't say with a straight face. This is the cost of your happiness.
2 - If you love your job but hate the money then look for the same job somewhere that pays more or in a location that has a lower cost of living.
3 - Look for a different career to pay the bills.
That is the problem with a lot of people I know that are absolutely drowning in student debt. They took the loans to get the job they want with little to no forward thinking about their earning potential or longevity. This is all a matter of personal accountability, which coincidentally is something that this society no longer values. No one is accountable for their actions anymore, and we're all victims.
jannah is not wholly incorrect, including cost of living being different. The issue is $100,000 not being able to get you by on the East and West coasts. It IS COMPLETELY OUTRAGEOUS. Now, if you have a huge student loan, and make that much money, you should keep your job but change where you live. Seriously, get down with the long commute and cheaper living. It sucks for sure, but really, how long do you want to be saddled with debt?
this is just another couple who took ,but is now moaning and groaning because they have to pay it back, be responsibly, pay ur debt, u knew this day would come u knew it wasnt free or what the hell dont pay and im sure somehow the taxpayers will foot the bill for ur education
Jannah,
I live in South Florida. I used to hang out at this little, hole-in-the-wall bar in Coral Springs, FL. I'm wealthy but most of the regulars in this place are not. We once got into a big discussion about affordable healthcare. Most of these folks made $20,000 a year or less. But 9 out of 10 of these folks spend $500+ a month on cigarettes and booze. None had health insurance. 100% of them had cellphones. 100% of them had cable TV. about 6 out of 10 had cars. 8 out of 10 had one kid or more.
At the end of the conversation, they all agreed they could afford a health insurance policy if they changed their ways. None of them were willing to do this. They said they would rather drink, smoke, talk on their phones, and watch TV. Fine by me. It's called freedom and they can choose to do what they like with their money.
My point is to reinforce your post. Even poor people can do a lot with their money if they choose to.
Red Neckelson---Thanks for backing me up on this! I live in northeast Oklahoma, where the cost of living is relatively low compared to the coasts. I am able to live on what I make because of my financial choices, and I like to think that I spend my money wisely. I don't have a lot of extras, like a new car or a smart-phone with all the data plans. I simply don't need them. What I DO have is a job I enjoy, a comfortable (small) house, and the knowledge that my credit score consistently hovers at or above the 800 mark.
I work hard for what I have, and I think everybody else should do the same.
I think we agree more than we disagree. In my first post I made on this topic, I brought out that going tens of thousands of dollars into debt to get a masters degree in library science wasn't the wisest course to take. Now, the only place they can make any money as a librarian (and therefore be able to repay their college loans) are places that are so expensive to live, it almost doesn't matter. They could move to rural Arkansas, get a small house, and work at Walmart making $8.00/hr BUT they will still have the student loans hanging over their head, will still be poor, and will not even be doing a job they like. Such is the definition of "misery" and "futility", especially if you initially set your sights much higher.
I did not go to college. I went to a local vocational school (with state grants) and a got a certificate in Computer Repair. I then bought some books and got some industry certifications. A coworker gradutated from Penn State with a degree in Computer Science, was thousands in debt, and had ABSOLUTELY NO practical IT knowledge. I ended up being HIS manager and taught him everything he knew about real world IT support.
I grew up in rural Kentucky but currently live in the Philadelphia area. The cost of living back home was ultra low - like a two bedroom house for $30,000 low. However, if I ever moved back, where would I work? Walmart? Buddies Gas and Go? If could only have my Philadelphia salary but Kentucky cost of living - I would live like a king then.
The points I am making are:
1. A degree does not always pay off, especially if you go up to your eyeballs in hock to get it.
2. Sometimes you have to live in certain areas to work in a particular field. However, the paradox is that areas with higher paying jobs also have higher costs of living. Futility...
If you are not the offspring of a US senator or representative, you should wait to marry one as this elite bunch has made into law that there relatives do not have to honor their debt. What a great country!!!!
Democrats are especially adept at "redistrubuting" taxpayer money to cover their own luxury spending:
Feds charge DC councilman with theft
"D.C. Councilman Harry Thomas Jr. was charged Thursday with stealing more than $350,000 in government funds and filing false tax returns.
The two felony counts against Thomas, a 51-year-old Democrat,...spending the money on a luxury SUV, travel and rounds of golf."
http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-feds-charge-dc-councilman-theft-172746461.html
Short of med school, I don't know if anyone should be borrowing $100k for an education. And that guy finished school in 1995. In 17 years he hasn't paid half of his debt?
When I had my school loans, I lived like I was still in school. I lived in shared houses, took no vacations, and drove an old beat up car until it was paid off. They make enough money, its just priorities. Cut back on all spending until its paid.
WakeHead, our daughter made it through undergrad without debt - with scholarships, grants, and her life savings. In dental school (in state) it took $240,000 of loans - as parents we thought it would be good for her to assume ownership of the costs of dental school. In hindsight, I wish that we would have shared some of the cost. Now she is emotionally struggling as she grew up to never have that much debt. She chose to go into public health. She just got her first air conditioned car 3 months ago and drove her junker since high school. She budgets her money well. Now we try to help her pay off the most expensive interest rate loans and she will not allow us to do so - her pride gets in the way. With nursing school, I was able to pay as I went, as I took 1-2 classes at a time and worked part time, which delayed my career. My daughter could not go to dental school part-time, but maybe part time schools will be coming back -- I also believe trade schools/community colleges will make a comeback.
Wakehead; you are correct. Once you have that income, you must still pay off your debts first. You are wise.
Candy - You do not assume $240K of debt for dental school and then go into public health. You absolutely need to be in a private practice and then the $240K will be little to no burden whatsoever. Dentists are different than other medical professions as they bill for whatever is not paid by the insurance company! Out of the 4 dentists I know, none work a 5 day week!
Wakehead, the cost of graduate education has gone way, way up. As Candy Bangert pointed out, $100K doesn't get you much today. My masters degree cost $40K, and my loan debt was $60K. It took me some time and a clever consolidation, but I got it paid off. I also got some help from my mother's estate--she left me $10K when she died, which I put on the student loan. So it CAN be paid back. I think the problem is that a lot of students don't understand how serious student loan debt is. Paying it back is not optional.
Have you seen tuition costs lately? Since I graduated from college 10 years ago tuition in the schools around me have tripled.
YES, tuition has tripled over the past 10 years - why is that??? I work at a law school, and enrollment is DOWN - why? It's not hard to figure out, with a poor economy and reports of huge debt, people just don't see college as a worthwhile investment anymore. I have a degree and am working as a secretary, something that doesn't exactly require a degree, but funny, universities want their work force college educated. No doubt I could probably make a little more money working somewhere else, but secretarial work just isn't going to pay that much. My only consolation is that somehow I managed to mostly pay as I went; didn't borrow more than a few thousand & that was paid off years ago.
Now I have the opportunity to go to Nursing school, and as a Nurse I could double my salary - AND there are plenty of nursing jobs. BUT the cost of tuition is so high now, there's no way I can pay as I go - not even as a part-time student. I will probably have to borrow some, the question is how much? This really SUCKS! I will borrow ONLY enough for books, fees & tuition (don't get me started on the cost of BOOKS!); not for living expenses, AND I will also pay on the loans as I go. Hopefully I can hold it down to about $3K a year, I'd be willing to borrow about 10K total if I have to, but no more. It just isn't worth it.
Candy
I also had to pay as I go for any classes I took, worked full time with class at a time at night, as I refused to get any loans for school. BUT...I decided to start my own business and had to get a loan. plus use my home as collateral. It took 10 years to make a comfortable living, and during that time I could not get a loan for a new car (or anything else) because of my debt...had to buy cash used cars during that time. Living in a tiny starter home, could not move because the bank held it for collateral. But I knew someday I would have it all taken care of one thing at a time. I did NOT expect the taxpayer to improve my standard of living by financing my loans to start my business. I had to wait until my business/career was viable before I could enjoy the fruits of my labor.
It had to be very worrisome to use your home as collateral, but you did what you had to do. My daughter is slowly realizing that her dream of public health just will not cut it. Once her loans are cut in half, I think she will relax.
Quit crying, you borrowed the money so pay it back.
MrCool, why is it necessary for you to ridicule people's appearance? That kind of argument impresses no one and makes you look like an a**hole.
Because everyone who's "normal" takes out student loans, it allows colleges to keep increasing their fees. It is a cycle that will only end when people refuse to take out loans they can't afford. Colleges will then have to compete for your hard earned dollar versus having the ability to jack up their rates every year.
On another note, you may love your job, but it it is your own fault if you took out huge loans and then can't afford to pay them due to your career choice. You most likely knew that going in, and should of selected a different path.
So you are saying the best way to beat colleges is to forgo your education?
There is a reason they are so quick to blame others and inflate themselves, and working through a well rounded education is not one of them.
Mike - absolutely, and just be content with your McDonalds job because it's practically impossible these days to even get the kind of job I have, without a college degree.
The funny thing, the job I do is print production...and so, the requirement isnt a SPECIFIC degree, just that you have ONE.
That is happening in a lot of jobs that dont NEED you to have a degree, but WANT you to have one...just so they can say they are hiring educated people.
The thing is, you dont get more pay for being more educated...you simply get the same job you could have gotten without one, because all these jobs require is ON THE JOB TRAINING.
We - as a society - are screwing ourselves with greed, stupidity and a lack of commone sense.
I think what he is saying is make the colleges compete for my money and not just raise tuitions when there feel like it. I personally know that some of the classes Itook were taught by teachers assists and 3rd year students so the professors could be in the labs spending Federal grant money, Be a teacher of reseacher, but not both at my expense.
The media in general, and MSNBC in particular seem determined to give this issue some traction. For my part, I can’t feel sorry for anyone who voluntarily agreed to take on a financial obligation only to regret it later. I recommend the media expand their coverage to car loans. I just can’t afford to pay mine. Maybe we could just repossess some college degrees to solve the problem.
Maybe these folks should have studied to enter a more economically viable profession, instead of one they would "love".
I think it's fine for people to study any field they want--as long as they consider the consequences. I have no problem with folks getting into a profession doesn't pay a lot. We don't all want to be electrical engineers, stock brokers, etc. But if you are going into a field that doesn't pay, you need to keep your debt load to a minimum. It's all too easy to take out a loan that helps pay your living expenses while you're going to school, instead of going the harder route, which is borrowing only enough to pay the tuition, fees, and books--and then working part time.
If they had any econimical or mathematical aptitude, they would have know what they were signing up for before they signed.
Yeah everyone should be a wall street trader or a lawyer...
Knight,
It's interesting to me. I've read your posts and agree, in part, with some of your comments. But underneath it all, I sense this entitlement mentality that is disturbing. No.... school should NOT be free. That's how you get a generation of "professional students" like they have in Europe and in Scandanavian countries where 30 year olds are living off of government stipends and going to class when they feel like it. That is not where America needs to be. You can blame the "right wing" all you want but personal responsibility has to be part of the equation or you lose all credibility. I agree that college in the USA is WAY overpriced and we made a huge mistake by essentially eliminating vocational schools from our list of choices. But it is your choice on where to get an education and I don't understand why a future librarian has to go to private school to get an advanced degree? I don't have a problem with her going to Drexel but don't complain about the cost later. You knew the cost going in. We all play the blame game at some level, but we need to ask tougher questions of individuals like........
1. Why do you still owe a mortgage on a house that has "been in the family for 40 years" and is being foreclosed on now? How many times did you refinance and for what purpose? Or is the bank just being mean?
2. Does your bookie or casino give you your money back when you make a bet and lose? No. So why should you get bailed out when you made a bet on real estate prices going up, up, and up and lost? Oh yeah.... there's the bank being mean again.
3. Why do you still owe more than half your student loan balance after 17 years? What are you spending your income on? I doubt they've "sacrificed" all the luxuries of life. Maybe I'm wrong but I'll take that wager. I'm probably being mean for thinking this.
4. How long did you take to graduate college? 7 years? Maybe you should have studied more and partied less. Sorry, that was pretty mean to say.
5. If you're broke, why do you drive a new car, have an iPhone, iPad, smoke cigarettes, and have the NFL package on your satellite TV? I know, I know...... it's your choice on how you spend your money. But I can still say you're an idiot........ or am I being mean?
Knight, I'm not saying you're completely off base but I hear one excuse after another on why people "struggle" in this country. It's time to add "look in the mirror" to the list of reasons why people are hurting.
Considering 10+ years ago this was the route I tried to take, I cant tell you it's not that simple.
I was going to a state school, I only took out loans for my tuition...and worked FULL TIME to pay my living expenses, and went to school full time.
At one point, I worked 2 jobs...one was about 30 hrs thur-sun, the other was about 20 hrs mon-wed...
and I still struggled to pay my living expenses, gas costs, food + books for a whole year.
Since the wages of part time jobs havent gone up since 10 + years ago...but the cost of living has...
I dont see how it's supposed to work...I really dont.
Well I believe subsidizing education would go a lot farther than many of the other things we currently waste our money on, I am not saying it shouldn't be tied to good grades or some kind of personal accountability.
I think anyone who has tried to attend college in the last 10 years can easily see it is vastly overpriced for a variety of reasons, and those reasons are not lessening or going away so naturally the cost and debt load is just going to keep increasing. What we are doing now is not working and something needs to change, and education is not the only area this same phenomenon is happening in...
Bottom line is we currently have 50 million more people than quality jobs in the USA, and we can either do something to try to bring some balance or we can just ignore this fact and keep on playing musical chairs with ballooning debt and lowering happiness and quality of life for all, our empire is on the brink of collapse.
Ice - im not saying you're wrong...absolutely not.
But, if WE as individuals have to take full responsibility, why dont banks have to take full responsibility when lending their depositors money out to people who've proven over and over again that they wont pay their debts back?
How on EARTH did someone with 100K in student loans get approved for a mortgage?
You see, most of us do not have the time or means to fully understand how everything in this world works...so far too often we rely on "professionals" to know best. If I go in seeking a loan that I SHOULD know I cant afford...
why cant a bank have that same understanding, and simply DO WHATS RIGHT?
Higher Education is the same reality...these colleges are offering degrees that go nowehere, and insane costs...
When I went off to college, and decided I wanted to be a teacher...I really didnt know how much they made, or how much my total education would cost...but I assumed, professional universities wouldnt be offering these degrees at insane costs...KNOWING when we go to get a job in that field, we cant afford to pay back our loans.
So why dont these PROFESSIONALS bear ANY responsibility too?
Why do we want to live in a society where every professional is suspect as a snakeoil salesman? - I believe nations that are like this, are considered 3rd world nations. I have no desire to become one.
I'm currently going to college at a Purdue school for mechanical engineering. I'm having to borrow for living expenses in addition to everything else because getting a part time job is just not a viable option. I don't have any time for a job because of how rigourous the courses are. It's also nearly impossible to get an engineering degree in 4 years anymore. People who say just get a job in engineering have obviously never tried it themselves.
That is a good point, so far the schools get away scot free, they sign up millions of desperate students for as much as they can possibly get in loans, then they bundle it all up 100% funded at the end and have no responsibility at all for the education or field they are supposedly training you in... They get paid no matter what (like wall street) and everyone else ends up with the damage from it.
Fordman, MSU (montana state) offers the engineering program also, a supposed 4 year degree will take you 6 if your lucky and don't have to re-take any classes. I am waiting for my refund for my loan this semester so I can go get my books. Find it irritating that these loans I have to pay back (which I will because I decided to go back to school) is sitting in a account right now where MSU is making millions off interest and wont release it until tomorrow or monday. School starts next week, so they also want you to take out a school loan against your federal loan so you can buy your books. WTF?! Take another loan out so I can buy the books instead of just giving me my money that I am entitled to get due to my loan anyways....
College isn't a source of education anymore, they are big money making businesses.
Yeah, pretty much disregard this comment. I also got a degree in Mech Eng, and knew plenty of people who worked part time jobs while attending school.
Bull@!$%#. Not only did I get an engineering degree in 4 years, but I tacked on a dual degree in economics for @!$%#s and giggles.
Engineering isn't for everyone. No one suggested it is. What was said is that there are currently no quality jobs left in the US. What should have been said is that there are very limited jobs for people who went to college and got degrees in something stupid- like art history, or something similarly inane.
If you "assume" debt-YOU should assume to pay it ALL back! I am fed up with the free loaders of this society. I have no intentions of being responsible for your acquisitions!!!!!!!!!
Do you feel the same way about a business that takes out loans, make contractual obligations and then files for bankruptcy and gets courts to cut deals so they can get out from under their promises?
An individual can declare bankruptcy just as easy as a business.
Student loans are not covered in bankruptcy.
"Student loans are not covered in bankruptcy."
That is true, and neither is debt for back taxes to IRS. In fact, IRS gets paid before the lawyers...
Isnt it funny that we'll forgive debt from someone who charged up a credit card on a shopping spree for clothes, trips and food...
but we wont forgive debt for someone who got an education, and is holding down a good job but struggling
we are a STUPID STUPID STUPID society. bank on that.
At least there is a limit to how long the IRS holds you accountable (9 years, I believe). Student loans are forever (or until paid in full, which I managed to do with mine back in 2005).
I laugh anytime a see a business with "LLC" after its name....Limited Liablity...means I can take your money do crappy work, then when you sue me, I can file bankruptcy and your screwed!! And the government allows it all the time...just look at whats happening all around us with big business. Why shouldn't the little guys be able to do it as well? If student loans were able to be filed on with bankruptcy, holy cow, the courts would be slammed to no end. lol
Really?!?! I took out student loans, worked part time jobs, and went to college. After college I got a job, worked part time jobs, sold stuff at craft fairs and paid off my student loans in 6 years. When are Americans going to stop crying about how much it costs to get a college education. There were no Hope scholarships when I went to college. It was called sacrifice. By the way, I am a teacher-not the highest paid profession in the country. Even more, my grandfather worked double shifts in the coal mines to send his 3 daughters to college while his daughters worked part time jobs. It is called sacrifice. A college education is a committment not a right. A high school education is a right. Everybody in America is guarenteed at free and appropriate education through high school. After that-suck it up if you want college.
Good for you! I agree - college isn't a right. Access is, but not everyone wants to go and we shouldn't brainwash them into thinking it's the only option, because it's not.
I went to a private school because, in my case, it was more fiscally feasible. I had some debt, paid it off in less than two years (from saving my whole life), but never complained about the debt because I took it on, even though I felt pressured to attend. I still knew that I didn't have to, and I singed that promissory note.
Thank God for sensible people like you! I'm in a job that doesn't pay much - entry-level office coordinator at my alma mater - and I just barely scrape by in my apartment but it's a job. (As I say this, we're undergoing a lot of change, so I'm also in the middle of a panic now to find jobs in an area where there are no others, but I can hardly blame my education for that!)
*signed* I'm having trouble typing today.
camp dogs, something tells me when you went to college it was WAY cheaper, part time jobs didnt pay much less than they do today....and living expeneses were WAY cheaper...
bottom line, I doubt you'd be able to do what you did then...today...and feel as smug about your success, and hard work.
just a hunch.
All things being equal minimum wage was $2.80/hour. My starting salary out of college was $19,000 in 1989. I went to a public college as I could not afford to go to William and Mary after having been accepted. My rent in college was $250/month plus utilities. Just because I am a success at what I do does not mean I am being smug. I have worked as a grocery store check out clerk, dug hedge roots, mowed lawns, short order cook, and sold items at craft fairs. During all that time, I was salaried at 19k a year and had a Master's degree. Smug? No. Grateful, yes. After paying off my loans, I began saving to continue my education. Saving for education-there is an idea few think about. I now have three graduate level degrees. Smug? No. Grateful I can retire in 8 years with a reasonable retirement? Yes.
I think that people need to be realistic about the major and the type of pay they can expect to receive. Sure if they "love" it go for it but then don't complain when the bill comes due.
If they had racked up the same debt and had Master's in Computer Science they would be making a combined $150,000 to $200,000 easy - and more if they were in a place like Silicon Valley. But an advanced degree is "Library Science"? I am no expert but that doesn't sound like a degree I would go into any debt for.
They might have made that in IT a decade ago, but now the market is flooded with IT professionals.
Expecting anybody to be able to predict what a job will pay in five years is folly. The stories you hear and the surveys you read while a student frequently give a rosier picture of what a job is going to be than you actually find several years later when you graduate. There was a time very recently when it "made sense" to go into IT, and when teaching jobs were "secure" and "recession-proof". The people talking loudest about the benefits of a computer science degree are the people who run computer science programs. It's in their best interests to exaggerate salaries and benefits to attract students. Your average eighteen-year-old is not going to think about this incentive. They assume the school is looking out for their best interests.
I'm not certain why the two in the story aren't on an income based repayment program, though. Given their public sector jobs, they should be able to pay off their loans in ten years at a fixed percentage of their income (usually around 10-15%.)
If there were a way to make schools responsible for some part of the written-off portion of the student debt under the IBR programs, it might encourage them to steer students into more prudent career paths.
Based upon my education level, experience, and location, 5 years ago it was estimated that I should be making around $60K now as a litigation paralegal. Due to the recession, getting laid off, and having to rebuild my entire life, I grossed $28K last year. My student loans top $70K. I went for the higher degree and took out more loans because it seemed as though I shouldn't have any problem getting a job, or making enough to pay it off. I thought it all through. Jobs aren't as available, and don't pay as much as they used to, and the cost for education is getting ridiculous. The loans I took out were ONLY for school expenses and books. I worked full-time as an assistant while taking a full course load. . . my pay just covered normal expenses. I don't, and didn't, live a lavish lifestyle. I can't remember when the last time I went on vacation was. . . I'm not trying to whine, just making the point that I live(d) frugally.
The whole "I did it, why can't you" responses tend to come from people who graduated over a decade ago. Guess what, the economy and job market have changed DRASTICALLY, even in the past 4 years. Many people in my generation took out loans because our expected income was supposed to be much higher than it is in this new reality. And for us, the only way out is to somehow make more money. If I could, I'd take my degree back for a refund.
100K combined is still not bad. I don't know what they're complaining about. It doesn't make sense to pay loans quickly anyway, since the laws can change, Obama can do a student loan bailout, there's income based repayment, etc. As long as it fits into the monthly payments, who cares? Every now and then you hit a bad month and do a forebearance. 100K a year? Cry me a river.
I kept going back to get further degrees to make myself more marketable on the job market. When the bank pre-qualified me for a $200k house 15 years ago I bought a 100k house. I call it living within my means.
Anyone who pays over $100k for a degree to get a job making $40k is a fool in the first place. They're also a lazy fool, because if they had worked part time jobs while going to school, they could have channeled 10k a year towards their education and graduated with their masters and only $30k in debt. A fool and their money are soon parted.
Absolute and complete garbage. The average tuition in my area is $20K a year. I went to school to be an engineer - want to guess what my starting salary was? Thats right 40K.
And I worked 3 part time jobs, seven days a week when I was in college. I didnt even make $10K a year (and that doesnt include living expenses).
Your statement is full of theoretical yammering that is both baseless and theoretical.
Mike-416
You can find engineering schools with tuition about $5,000 per year.
I've graduated from engineering school, worked part time and was raising a child in NYC. All without student debts.
When I was released from the military on my return from Vietnam in "1967", I had the option of going back to school at the expense of the government to further my education and didn't. As it has turned out, I have married and raised my own family without going into debt to further my education. The Christmans wanted the education and took on their debt to achieve it, so they need too quit crying about it and pay off their student loans. With all their schooling, the one thing they didn't learn is how to budget themselves.
Just one thing. The old G.I. Bill, which is the category you would have earned in the '60's and '70's, would have paid for all of your college expenses. All, 100%.
Who really cares,they signed for the loans and it was their choice. Just pay the Piper and stop the whining.
People who don't want to 'swim in student loans' should work while they go to college. I attend full time and work full time; I make either the President's List or the Dean's List every quarter. I'm not in debt to anyone. I guess student shouldn't expect to vacation their way through school and then whine about the 'burden' they created for themselves.
Let me guess, liberal arts major? In engineering that's not doable.
FordMan97...it's not doable, except for the fact that it is. I got an engineering degree and made the dean's list, all while working 24 hours a week to pay for school. The hint here...I didn't not go to a ridiculously overpriced private school, but instead went to a state college while eating my pride and living with my parents, where I came out of school with absolutely zero debt. This is very much possible, regardless of bachelor's degree
Danfri, I agree anything is do-able with hard work. How long ago did you get your degree? I attend MSU (montana state), its almost impossible for even kids that have no job and mommy and daddy are paying there way to even come close to being on the deans list. The engineering standards have changed so much do to the fact that there are alot of morons who build crap that fails daily. Its alot harder to get the work done for the degree than it used to be.
Ford, no, I'm in the nursing department. Nice try though! :)
These people need a basic course in cost/benefit analysis. Spending (borrowing) that much money for a job that pays <50K??? They were brainwashed by the 'You can be whatever you want to be' crowd. While true, it leaves out the minor detail that you might not get a living wage doing it. Learning skills that add value will always be well pid, service jobs not so well.
Although really everything isn't about money, there is less stress, job security, career satisfaction etc. to be considered, just don't expect those types of jobs to pay as much - the compensation is in other areas than monetary.
I don't think Economics is a required class to get your library degree...lol
In a survey of the organization’s members, conducted a few years ago, nearly half of the respondents said their debt load was “unreasonable,” while about two in 10 called it “unmanageable.”
Folks, you all signed the bottom line. Its not the loan that was unreasonable or unmanageable, its that you bit more than you can chew, but bit anyway. I agree with John Clarke...too many people complain about the student debt they have incurred. You had a choice, you made it, embrace it and move on.
Well said David. If you signed the bottom line now you have to PAY.
Yep easy to do with no jobs, now what.
Knight... no jobs? There are jobs. You might have a lower title or job description, but there are jobs.
I didn't take on any student loans. I worked week ends while others partied. I worked two jobs during the summers while others partied. I graduated with no debt.
Although the above poll is not scientific it does indicate that less than 1/3 of students have a problem with student debt. If 2/3 are happy with the results of financing their college education why do we keep reading about the minority who are in financial distress? Is this issue just another example of a segment of society who simply can't "make it" or made bad decisions and are looking for someone else to cover for their shortcomings? I am just a little tired of hearing about this issue when I worked my tail off and sacrificed a lot of short term gratifications for long term goals when I financed my own way through college.
Hear, hear! You seldom find whiners in the group that was smart enough to know what a student loan entails, smart enough not to buy a house they couldn't afford, smart enough not to invest on margin, smart enough to (fill in the blank).
Yup. Also many of the people who are having this problem HAD to go to a private school when a much less costly one would have done. I for one didn't go to a private school because of the cost. I could have and been in the same boat but i didn't. It's a choice to a large extent. Common sense and hard work will go a long way in situations like this. Two traits that tend to be plentiful in people who are not having issues paying back their loans but usually grossly absent in people who are.
I'm not going to feel sorry for someone who borrowed my money to go to school and now are struggling to pay it back...it was tough having those tax dollars confiscated for someone elses education too
Your tax dollars are nothing. It's not "your" money. How arrogant.
Kamkam, Where did the money come from to give these people for their education?
If the school thinks you have potential, they may pay you to attend classes..My kid got paid to attend one of the local colleges. He also had a job tutoring there for $140/ week He then transfered to the best state university where he paid for room and board only. Now he is being paid by that same university to recieve his PhD. In essence he has an income while attending school. I was not so fortunate but I worked and paid as I went.