If you want to discuss wasteful spending, like a three year salary for someone not even there, then I am with you. However, Taxes are an agreed way for us to do collectively what not one of us could do on their own, or have the incentive to do (roads and bridges come to mind). Fortunately, most Americans get this. I liked the Tea-party at first, but then they were high-jacked by the "Starve the Beast" crowd (See Reagan staffer's comments).

What's always left off of these analyses is 'Transfer Payments', such as the value of food stamps, medicaid, subsidized housing and utilities, education grants, etc.

When you factor in these payments, middle incomes are a lot more equal.

The recent spate of articles about the 'income gap between rich and poor' is a prime example. It showed big differences in income disparity over a 40 year period, but when these 'Transfer Payments' were factored in, and it was updated to this year, the so-called 'income gap' virtually disappeared. That 'study' cherry picked the ending date for the study of 2007 (4 years ago), just before the recession started, when the 'gap' was at its maximum. When updated to this year, the gap is reduced dramatically because the 'rich' suffered a far larger income loss than the middle/poor classes.

Of course, we have to remember that it was the NY Times that published the study, so we shouldn't be surprised at its obvious bias.

Getting by is one thing...but retirement is S C A R Y....all the safety nets are being taken away from us.

Social Security and Medicare are threatened.

The house value dropped ....but expensive repairs are still needed.

BIG government might be cutting, but LOCAL taxes keep going UP.

Insurance Companies are charging exorbitant premiums.

Groceries, gas, and utilities eat up every penny today.

NOT A SINGLE CANDIDATE'S FAMILY lives on 50K (before taxes) a year.

Roy

Most hard working middle class people who work full time do not QUALIFY for 'transfer payments" such as food stamps, subsidized housing and medicaid. We are the ones struggling to pay our medical bills, mortgages and utilities with two adults working full time.

It's a shame that the people who work the least qualify for the most handouts.

When you factor in these payments, middle incomes are a lot more equal.

That's a flawed statement, due to you can't receive food stamps, etc. if you are a middle income earner.

I JUST LOVE how liberals are always saying there's "no gubmint health care in America" Then whey the HELL is the largest expense in my state of Florida MEDICAID (for losers not the elderly- Medicare is for elderly) and education is a distant second? Why does it cost so much? BECAUSE there are way too many rich fat cats making money off the sick- these damned insurance companies and their stock price and lawyers are what is being allowed by our gubmint to run health care in America.

I'd like to know the REAL median income if you took out the top 1-2% ..

And locally, the only people that make that or more, are civil servants, or health care. Not a SINGLE plant gives their employees that kind of money.

We all get use to what we make. I know when I worked at the steel mill, I went thru that money like candy. Had friends out the hu-how.

And now ? 50 grand sounds like the lottery !

Personally, like most all numbers that come from the governments mouth, I think their skewed ! As opposed to us, that are, well, it rhymes with skewed.

Roy, that study was ridiculous. It is silly to say a person ISN'T poor because they receive food stamps. It's the reverse. They receive food stamps BECAUSE they are poor. That the programs elevate these people effectively out of poverty means they are working!

What is the study trying to say? We should cut off aid to these people so they really ARE poor? How idiotic!

The shocker, look at the chart, since 1969 the median income has gone up 9.4%, inflation in the forty years has been 3.8% compounded annually, that is over 160% inflation .

OverPaidCivilServant,

You ask what the median would be like if you took out the top 1-2%. As a matter of fact, if you reduced the income of everyone in the entire top 50% down to $55,000 per year, the MEDIAN income wouldn't budge. However, the AVERAGE income would dive considerably. This article is about the MEDIAN. Read the article again to figure out the difference.

People are not commenting on the reported statistic that incomes flatlined in the last ten years, while at the same time corporate profits and management pay has gone to stratospheric heights. Where has the money gone? Not to labor, but to the investment and management class, the 1%. The same forces that are concentrating the wealth are, of course, the same ones that are demonizing the unions. The flatlining of income and the decline of Unions go hand in hand. Workers' unions, for all their flaws, are not just greedy and corrupt mobsters, but a force for economic justice in America. Union membership has declined drastically, so people who work for a living have no collective voice except for the cumbersome and easily manipulated (bribed) Congress. We have seen how that is working for us. Join or form a Union at your workplace. It's the only way to claw back some of the wealth that labor itself is generating.

chris-65

I JUST LOVE how liberals are always saying there's "no gubmint health care in America" Then whey the HELL is the largest expense in my state of Florida MEDICAID (for losers not the elderly- Medicare is for elderly) and education is a distant second? Why does it cost so much? BECAUSE there are way too many rich fat cats making money off the sick- these damned insurance companies and their stock price and lawyers are what is being allowed by our gubmint to run health care in America.

So all Medicaid recipients are losers?

ROFL Clown

Good comments Madeline4489650! I had said a lot more than this but I disappeared and I don't fill like retyping it all.

To put it all in perspective we decry the1%, we should remember that earning $50,000 puts you in the top 0.98% of world earners, so these people are in fact in the 1%.

However, we do have a higher standard of living with higher expenses I just thought this was an interesting statistic and helps put things in focus when we look out to the rest of the world not just inwards.

Good for you Madeline-4489650 an intelligent analysis of why the middle class are screwed. The congress says I can live on a VA pension of $11,820 a year yet the same bastards have to have over $100,000 a year to just barely make it. If I could find a way to augment my pension it would do me no good as the VA would decrease my pension by that amount or eliminate my pension altogether! In case you think that pension was easily gotten I looked for work in the Dallas Metroplex for three years with a BA, MS, MCP, MCSE, and a MCSA. I have a 30 page list of the places I went to (8 font single spaced) and I not only didn't get a job I never even got a job interview! Of course I was 52 when I started that search but I'm sure age discrimination had nothing to do with my lack of success because the Feds say it is illegal. Your comment on unions were well thought out but to demonstrate how well the corporations and the rich have brain washed the poor and the middle class against unions is that people who aren't making squat are against unions?#?*???. Being extremely poor I am painfully aware of how much prices rise on goods you have to buy and inflation for the last 3 years is more like 10% per year than the crap figures the government is putting out.

artilliary Viet Nam 69,70,71

I wish I was an employer because your tenacity and willingness to get out here and find a job would have made me snap you up. We need people like you, gone are the days when we expect people to stay in a job for 30 years, so hiring someone a little older should not be a problem at all.

It maybe hard but keep going someone somewhere will give you that first chance you need.

krestov,

it's a good thing you're not an employer, because you would be out of business making hiring decisions based on someone's internet post. You are willing to "snap up' someone who 30 pages worth of other employers wouldn't even grant an interview??? Do you think those employers don't want good employees???

And so it goes...as the article mentioned, $50,000.00 in some areas is a small fortune while in other areas it is a pittance. Depends on the cost of living and inflation, and that is the 800lb gorilla in the room. We all want more money but if that money keeps buying less we can earn a $100,000. and it won't be enough. If a loaf of bread cost $.25 in the fifties and the same loaf of bread is now $2.00 then what you have is inflation and rising costs will follow rising incomes.

One little flaw with your statement, if you only make $50k then you most like pay zero taxes. The wealthiest 1% pays over half of all taxes so deadbeats don't have to contribute anything.

@Chris65,

Actually, Medicaid is State funded while Medicare if Federally funded. Both serve the elderly, but often times MEDICAID provides services to uninsured children, the disabled and the unemployed. What's interesting is that Obamacare would probably financially help states like Florida that have large populations of elderly and "underemployed." While States with younger, healthier and smaller working populations would be financially taxed.

I just LOVE hearing people complain about being poor or living paycheck-to-paycheck when they have: carS, nice clothing or budget clothing bought often, cell phones, cable tv, televisions, blu-rays and dvd players, ipods and mp3 players, computers and laptops and tablets, printers, dishwashers, microwaves, a purse or shoe "collection", sporting equipment etc. You're not poor by fate you're poor by the fact that you're buying more than you earn. I work with a woman who always has new clothes, shoes, purses, etc and she's constantly complaining about the world keeping her down and how she can't get out of debt. She doesn't buy "high end" items but she's got a TON of mall priced items that she clearly can't afford. She'd complain on here about her income. That is totally different than a family of 4 or 5 living moderately and not being able to live.

overpaidcivilservant... median is not affected by the outliers at the high end anywhere near as much as the average calculation (or mean).

http://submedian.blogspot.com/2007/11/what-hell-is-median-and-why-should-i.html

These fools should be ashamed of themselves...I think I spent $50K on my toilet.

I make a little over the median and paid about 20% in taxes. That includes ALL taxes and fees collected by any government or government authorized institution. Examples include sales tax, car registration fee, county property taxes, what used to be called FICA, hotel and rental car use tax, and many others. I do not limit my thinking to just "income tax" as taxes come in many forms.

Jake the Duck,

Great point I had not considered. Instead of paying 35% (Federal Income Tax) I am actually paying much more.

Those of us who gross $56,000+ per year and may not own a home just yet, chose not to have children and who don't have enough in medical bills to itemize pay PLENTY of taxes.

I for one pay well over $6,000 in taxes every year just to the feds, not including state/local. I'm sure my circumstances aren't THAT rare.

What's with the two guys in the Photo on the story? Normally, a story has someone that represents something in the article. They don't seem to represent anyone mentioned in the Article. It's kind of like having a picture of an elephant with an article about dogs.

Infidel ( ﮎﺍﻕ ) "When you factor in these payments, middle incomes are a lot more equal. "............'That's a flawed statement'

Agreed. It should have said "When you factor in these (transfer) payments, many of the 'poor' would move into what we might consider the 'middle class'.

When I re-read my comment after posting it, I realized my error, but it was too late to correct it.

The annual value of some of these 'Transfer Payments' could exceed $20,000 per year for a family (food stamps = $6,000, Medicaid = $10,000, Housing subsidy = $6,000, Pell Grants = $5,000, utility subsidies = $2,000).

And none of that is considered as 'income' for purposes of determining eligibility.

@Krestov who wrote...

"To put it all in perspective we decry the1%, we should remember that earning $50,000 puts you in the top 0.98% of world earners, so these people are in fact in the 1%.

"However, we do have a higher standard of living with higher expenses I just thought this was an interesting statistic and helps put things in focus when we look out to the rest of the world not just inwards."

This is the classic problem of the absolute vs the relative .. those who want to look only at income vs those who look at it in relation to the cost of actual living. And looking at it in relation is the only way to give the data meaning.

matt-1185230 "Roy, that study was ridiculous. It is silly to say a person ISN'T poor because they receive food stamps. It's the reverse. They receive food stamps BECAUSE they are poor. That the programs elevate these people effectively out of poverty means they are working!"

You misunderstood my point. Of course they help effectively lift people out of poverty, but when we count people as 'poor' because they make less than $xxxxx per year, but leave out the value of perhaps $20,000 in welfare payments, it can skew the reality of the situation.

Suppose that one working family earns $30,000 per year and doesn't qualify for any assistance (too much income), but another family earns $20,000 per year but qualifies for $20,000 per year in 'assistance' (food stamps, housing subsidy, welfare, health insurance, Pell grants, utility subsidies, etc.). Which one is better off? The first family get's after tax income of about $24,000 per year, but the second family gets after tax income (or equivalent) of $36,000 per year, which is 50% more, and yet is considered 'poor' for purposes of income comparisons.

When we say that household #1 is 'middle class', but household #2 is 'poor', it can be very misleading.

Great point I had not considered. Instead of paying 35% (Federal Income Tax) I am actually paying much more.

I find that unlikely that you pay 35% in Federal Income tax since that's the highest bracket and you're not counting any deductions.

Something that most people don't realize is the hight cost od government Here's an example;

Current per-capita income is approximately $50,000 per year, but let's look at how much they have in AFTER-tax income. Between the Federal and State/Local governments, they spend about $5.7 Trillion per year, which is about 39% of GDP, which means that about 39% of per capita income has to be paid in taxes to fund government operations (to avoid deficits).

That means that, while median pre-tax income is about $50,000, AFTER-tax income is only about $30,500 per year.

But don't feel bad, because in socialized Europe, the AFTER-tax income of the average worker is only about $20,000 per year - they just don't know how much in taxes they pay because their government has ways of hiding it (VAT).

surprised to find that incomes have fallen even more sharply in the weak recovery period that followed the recession, even as the massive job cuts slowed.

This is because corperations have taken full advantage by slashing wages, rasing out of pocket expences on there employees for pure greed and profit. while still expecting same levels of productivity by the ones who have been left behind doing what use to be two to three peaples jobs. I'm sure there willl be some cry baby business man that is going to disagree and call be some kind of lazy lib. so on and so on etc.....

Ok, the reason why you use median in this particular instance instead of mean is that the median isn't affected by extremes nearly as much. The median is the number in the middle. a>b>c>d>e gives c as the median while the mean is (a+b+c+d+e)/n =(a+b+c+d+e)/5

So, taking out the wealthy from this calculation would have little effect. Here's a simple example.

Let's say we have 10 people, 9 make between 39k and 41k a year and 1 person makes 1M. the average is about 140k. But 140k isn't at all representative of what people in the area make. The median number is between 39k and 41k. So, the effect of large extremes on either end are heavily lessened.

In most regions a 50k household income might just cover the priority bills with no allowance for extra dental, health-care, a car loan and any fun money.

50k is squat, But it's the median income the kings would like to see all the middle class serfs at. Struggling people are more subservient and productive

ROY WILSON..... there you go with your republiconserteabag dino negative spin.

So the poor on welfare are getting 20 thousand dollars in benefits huh? LOL

Where can I sign up? LOL

To other posters...... Is there a State Tax in Florida?

There are those folks who keep screaming about the govt is too big blah blah blah, yet complain when there are those unethical folks - rich/corporations and poor alike- who game the system costing all of us billions of dollars that could otherwise be spent elsewhere....

Where are the folks with the knowledge to audit many of these corporations etc books and holdings? Isn't that the complaint I have been hearing for years now, how they do not have the personnel to do this sort of job so these corps end up paying little to no taxes? Do you realize that it is easier for the IRS to audit regular folks (and they do) than to go after these international and multinational companies?

How are these fraudulent folks going to be caught if the present trend of cutting the govt workforce and defunding departments continues? Who is there to do these investigations and catch these criminals?

Ahyhoo, the biggest worry for folks is healthcare.

Most families are 1 illness away from living on the streets and it's worse for the 1 person households as they oftentimes have no support system and are soley dependent on him/herself alone.......

Could a family live on 50 thousand dollars per year..... yes if they did not have to factor in the cost of healthcare.

On your slide down the greased shute to a life on skid row, otherwise known as 'outdoors living', 'camping' 'roughing it' etc, it should be noted that living on the street would require a permit first... these days... LOL

Welcome to Serferation Nation, USA (Used Spent/Sacked Abandoned)

Then whey the HELL is the largest expense in my state of Florida MEDICAID (for losers not the elderly- Medicare is for elderly)

Somebody posted this...Don't you know any senior citizens ? In your last few years they ship you off to a fascility for people who now have to turn to medicaid and combo with medicare. (when you run out of pension money and everyone does eventually if they live a long.. you live long enough until you cap out on medicare and then you are no longer offered therapy for anything just the basics and thats it...

Medicaid is part of the future for every person when they become old and run out of pension money...I have older relatives its always the same PRIVATE PLACES GIVE YOU GREAT CARE UNTIL YOU RUN OUT OF MONEY THEN YOU ARE THROWN OUT. LAST RELATIVE AFTER 5 YEARS FOR 3500 A MONTH WAS GIVEN 15 DAYS TO GET OUT THE RELATIVE WAS OVER 100

WE TREAT CHILDREN AND THE extreme ELDERLY LIKE GARBAGE IN THIS COUNTRY

The amount paid for children is small in comparison to full care places where the elderly live...Without medicaid what would happen to these people ?

Some have outlived there own children..Have 2 relatives in that situation right now..There kids died long ago

Ok, I'll bite, Roy. I am medically disabled. While I was waiting for disability as a single woman I received a princely sum of $211/mo in "General Relief" and a whole $356/mo in food stamps (living in the DC suburbs where everything is more expensive - including food). During that time my "other" income was ZERO. I also ONLY received "General Relief" with the proviso that I had applied for SSI to cover the first 5 months of disability that the SSD (based SOLELY on my pre-disabled income - just like Social Security Retirement) didn't cover. When I finally won my APPEAL after 18 months of NO INCOME every penny of that $211/mo was paid BACK to the state before I ever saw a penny from the 18 MONTHS of 'back-pay" (5 of SSI and 13 of SSD) that I was owed.

But let's leave out the FACT that I had to pay back the government ... 211+356 = $567/mo. That translates to a whole $6,804 PER YEAR ($4272 if you don't factor in the General Relief) Now, I might have been able to get into subsidized housing - if the waiting lists state-wide weren't LONGER THAN 4 YEARS. I did NOT qualify for Medicaid because I was SINGLE - yet I had medications I had to take three times a day every day for my medical issues and I see a doctor about 4 times a year at a minimum. In addition, for someone on disability, you must be RECEIVING disability for 2 YEARS before you're eligible for Medicare.

Roy, you obviously do NOT know anything about which you speak on this thread.

"The great recession of 2007--2009 and it's aftermath" Lefties what are you going to them, recession of 2007--2013? I think 7 MILLION Americans are caught in the AFTERMATH!!!!

"The great recession of 2007--2009 and it's aftermath" Lefties what are you going to them, recession of 2007--2013? I think 7 MILLION Americans are caught in the AFTERMATH!!!!

i make just a bit over 50k and pay over a third of that for taxes. the deductibles for that tax bracket are set so high you never get a chance to itemize them. alot of people dont realize that. while the deductibles for higher earnings are actually much lower per capita so that it is easier to get out of paying your taxes using them. hate to say this but the more you earn the easier it is not to pay taxes in this country.

A couple making 50,000 would pay payroll taxes each, state income tax, federal tax jointly. Assuming a simple tax return, 50,000 - 11,400 SD, -7300 Exemptions for both, = taxable income of 31,300 with a tax of 3,858 which is 7.7 percent. Also deduct ss and medicare tax for both which assuming both make 25,000 would be 1912.5 each. I don't know the state tax they would have if any depending on their location.

So 50,000 gets reduced to 42,316. The payroll and federal tax(approx) would be 7,684 which is 15 percent total. That would leave 3,526 monthly for insurance, rent/mortgage, utilities, food, clothes, car payment, gas, etc. The rent/mortgage assuming 30 percent of gross would be 1250 including insurance/property taxes. Typical car payment is 300/mo. Food for two 400/mo, 150/utilities, 100/gas, 100/insurances etc. Approx bills would be 2300, which then leaves 1,226 for savings and other incidentals which obviously depends on the couple and their debt load such as another car payment or student loan. That being said, a rent of 1250 in my town would be a lot. 700 would get a person a very nice place to live and since I am assuming low paying jobs here they can be had anywhere in the US.

Theboys..... how about it is more like 1800+ dollars for mortgage, depending on the price of home.... plus about 800 dollars for property tax and property insurance, plus 400 dollars or so for utilities if one is careful on the amount of water and electricity/gas used, and about 600 dollar plus for food including lunch, factor in say 100 dollar for healthcare like deductibles, co-pays and over the counter meds,(hopefully you have quality medical insurance in the first place), car insurance and or public transportation of say 100 dollars..... then that is about 3800 dollars or so per month which would leave a person about 274 dollars in the red per month.

3626- 3800= 274

That did not include purchase of clothing etc, repaying student loans, car note, home repairs, landscaping, HOA fees etc..... and even if it did that would still be 274 dollars in the red.

For renters... in my neck of the woods you could not get an apartment for 700 dollars per month, maybe a room in someone's house or as a house sharer but a nice seperate apt you would not get for that price. Maybe in a rent controlled building if you can find one, you might find something but that would start at around 8-900 dollars per month and then you would still have to pay for utilities, renter insurance, and the various other expenses... Average rent in a new to newish building start at about 1225 dollars per month for a 1 bedroom and about 2500 dollars or so for a 2 bedroom and you will have to pay all utilities including telephone, cable, laundry, internet etc and for covered parking.

Each area is different and thus 50 thousand dollars in some southern states may go a far way while in the west coast and the east coast etc ..... you would definately be treading water. It then becomes about all the things you can do without and making sure you save like crazy for your retirement while getting rid of debt like student loans etc.

We have been told ad nauseum that we have this great standard of living better than most other countries, yet in actuality we do not have the best or even a decent standard of living in comparison to other first world country imo. This is because of the stagnation of wages in this country.

No wonder there were so many people living on credit cards to make ends meet and there are so many latchkey kids trying to raise themselves and getting into trouble or joining gangs etc... especially with both parents having to work long hours just to make a enough money to keep treading water. Factor in say a medical emergency.. and that family is going to lose their home and everything. And this refers to folks with a college degree/profession.

Still think that we have the best standard of living in the world?

When last have most folks gone on vacation overseas or even away from home and was able to pay for same with cash or without generating another debt? LOL

I just LOVE hearing people complain about being poor or living paycheck-to-paycheck when they have: carS, nice clothing or budget clothing bought often, cell phones, cable tv, televisions, blu-rays and dvd players, ipods and mp3 players, computers and laptops and tablets, printers, dishwashers, microwaves, a purse or shoe "collection", sporting equipment etc.

@Impatient Girl: You really think having a television, a microwave (what, about $50?), or a dishwasher is extravagance? Can you even find a place to live that doesn't have a dishwasher? Does a ceiling fan make your list, or how about underwear? Heck, let's just all go naked - than at least you can't be accused of overspending.

The poor get income transfers.

Those in the middle and upper classes get TAX transfers. It's still all tax payer dollars. Looking down on the poor while receiving government money in the form of tax credits is pretty hypocritical.

Impatientgirl.... ever heard of charity shops/consignment stores/thrift shops/vintage shops, ebay, bid sites etc the Salvation Army etc for stuff including clothing, electronics etc?

Regarding the car.... how about second hand/used/n'used or even getting a used one from another family member....?

Perhaps your idea of being poor is being destitute/living on the streets/ pushing all one's belongings in a shopping cart or living in a shelter huh.....

What I have not seen commented on... I think most people could make it on $50,000 if there wasn't someone profiting off our every move. Every time you buy food, gas, heating oil, health care, and medicines, someone who is already filthy rich is getting richer! (Futures trading, for profit health care). Any way you look at it, money is getting funneled to the top.

(sorry haven't been back. this page for some reason doesn't like loading..pfft)

medium~median~average !

I stand corrected.

One of my main fears now, is health care. With such a horribly low percentage getting good benefits anymore (and the vast majority of those, public workers, by a 3 to 1 margain) I see a H U G E problem in 20-30 years. Think we have an issue now ? Just wait.

Soooooo many people don't include their bennies in their total yearly worth to a company. CAN be well over 50% of your wages. Should that be included fairly? (remember the auto workers gripe ? saying NO it shouldn't be included. Which brought their *worth* up from 40-45 grand, to over 72 grand).

Yes, you should pay back what you borrow, but seriously, how much of your payment is interest? Why is everyone so mad about the shady loan practices about banks but not complaining about the usurious rates of student loans? Mine are all government direct, no private loans at all, yet my interest rates on my student loans are higher than the rate I got on my car note. I don't want loan forgiveness, I want a lower interest rate.

Just remeber that the interest on the student loans is also a tax deduction. Car loans do not carry that advantage. John, keep on striving, paying off debt is never easy, but when you are done, imagine what you will do with that 1800.00 a month...

Actually, if you factor in the fact that you don't have to pay for your loan until you are past graduation. That's a good deal. However, it's only bad if you can't get a job and your degree is a worthless piece of paper :)

Maybe you should have gone to a less expensive school? I went to a top public school and was able to pay tuition with money from summer jobs. My advice to anyone looking at colleges is to look at school as an investment and see which one has the best track record of return on investment. Whatever school johnathondoe went to seems to be a poor investment if they are paying back $11k apiece per year with degrees that only got them $42k a year jobs.

Adding to David's: I'd also advise those planning college for their kids to not be so quick to rush them into college for the sake of being in college. Sometimes it is better to wait. I remember so many people I grew up with spending an extra 2 - 4 years in college because they had no clue what they really wanted to do in life.

Having your kids wait a year or two while working somewhere in the field they are planning on going into can solve a few issues: they can earn towards expenses, gain experience and contacts in that industry that will make future professional employment easier, and be reasonably sure the expense of college will be used appropriately.

Robbie, I couldn't agree more with your comment on usurious rates of students loans. I've heard several predictions that the next big financial crisis is going to be because of student loans. My federal tax return was kept last year because my loans are in arrears.

Here's what kills me....approximately $400 of my expected tax return was going to be EIC and stimulus money, money that was never taken out of my pay for federal taxes proper (which was a few hundred dollars--I make less than $15K per yr). This stimulus and EIC money went toward the payment of my loan. Now I'm happy to actually be paying less on my loan, but it's another prime example of govt waste. Go figure.

That was a pretty ignorant comment david-3636731...you must be assuming that we are much older and only making $84k a year. I'm 24 and just graduated in 2010 and my wife finished her master's the same year and is 27. She went to a public school and I started out private (Case Western Reserve University), but then went public 2 years later BECAUSE of the price (and I had a half scholarship). I did everything I could to minimize the pain and the interest rate on my main loan is still 15%, but granted a couple are also at 2.5%. So trust me, it's not just our life choices that got us that much a month, in fact our life choices are the reason that we can afford that $1800 a month and still be able to buy a new dryer when ours died. College is always worth the investment in my eyes, just shouldn't be so damn expensive one way or another.

$1800/month? Either you have a really, really bad credit score or you paid way, way too much for your degree or you are trying to pay off the loan very, very quickly or a combination of the three. Three suggestions, improve your credit score, shop around for better prices, and refinance your student loan for a 25 year repayment schedule.

College drop out speaking up here. I make 84K, actually a little more, just on my own and I'm 27. Now I live in Northern VA so everything here is more than most places and no doubt that salary is effected the same way. Just chiming in cause so long as someone possesses skills that are indispensable to a company, they will be payed well.

Maybe you should have gone to a less expensive school? I went to a top public school and was able to pay tuition with money from summer jobs. My advice to anyone looking at colleges is to look at school as an investment and see which one has the best track record of return on investment. Whatever school johnathondoe went to seems to be a poor investment if they are paying back $11k apiece per year with degrees that only got them $42k a year jobs.

I also payed for my school while going to it, but that was 10 years ago. I can also say that when I went to my public university it was 60 dollars per undergrad credit. That same school is now about 240 dollars per undergrad credit. This is also fairly normal for most institutions. The price of higher education has skyrocket and due to being payed less coming out of college than in the past the return on investment has lowered.

Mopman, I suggest you wake up and smell the roses. You are in a decent position not really a secure one though. The fact is companies are replacing employees at a record pace using the advancement of computer technology and robotics. The scary truth is over 70% of American jobs are in the service industry and 80% of those jobs could be replaced by our current technology today. There are automated fast food restaurants now. Hate to break it to ya kid but the foundation of your house was built on shifting sand. In the next ten to twenty years technology will make paying an employee an inefficient business model for all but 3% of companies’ world-wide. Even if you are in the 3% of jobs only a human can do you will be in direct competition with the other 97%, I’m guessing some of those guys finished college and would do your job better and cheaper. Robots can build a 100,000 square foot home in 24 hours today. Machines don't sleep, you don't have to pay them and they don't sue you.

Jason from Chicago

Or there's a fourth option, considering both of our credit scores are good (700 and 760), we've already consolidated and refinanced what was eligible, and we still went to public schools (for the most part). My wife has her MBA and therefore is essentially paying double, and I went to private school before switching. No two situations are alike.

That being said, this article was about means of living, and not student loans. I was just pointing out that without our great paying starter jobs (in our fields, which is very important...if we weren't we wouldn't be doing well either), we would have had to defer payments down the road, accruing more interest in the process.

joejibblets, I'm not worried at all honestly. As a federal employee there is job security and mobility between other government agencies. In my career path college isn't need as much as specific computer certs and updates on program management. The IT work force is growing, pretty quickly as well. Last I heard the CIA added lots of IT positions. The 2210 career field isn't going anywhere any time soon. so long as someone keeps their knowledge up to date and manages to get into the right agency they can make 150k..as a technical GS15. I will say on that note, I have seen many agencies move away from he GS pay banding and shift towards "pay for performance", which is the right model as there are quite a few under and nonperforming feds.

I like the very last sentence, specifically the last part "they don't sue you" lol so very true!

On a side note, if someone wants a degree that is a cash cow, go after cryptography. People that have computer science with a specific in that field will be in higher demand as technology moves forward.

My student loan interest rate is 1.6%

You were warned of the bubble bursting and if you did not lock in your interest rate % while they were low...you are paying too much now.

1800$/month means you are a doctor making way more than 84k combined. Even if your loans are 800/each, you must have gotten an advanced degree that is not paying your worth...

ben those student loans can only be deducted if you make the limit for your deductions. most people dont make the limit so they cant be deducted. just because something says it is deductable doesnt mean that it really is. you still have to make the cap to be able to deduct it. they seem to be constantly raising deduction cap for the people in the 50-100,00 range while decreasing the deduction cap for people above and below that range.

Hey Mopman it sounds like you are pretty squared away, I guess it is just the rest of us that are screwed.

If I was getting $50,000 a year I'd be living good. I could get my house painted and get a better car.

I agree with Binary. $50,000 is a TOO DIE FOR income.

I deserve it !!

That is the all about me world . I can under stand student loans , the coast of a college education is out of sight . All schools are for profitschools who is kidding who . Haveing said that it is up to each and every one of us to live with in our means period. All to many people feel they must keep up with the Joneses.

binary - that's bullcr*p. It depends on lots of variables, including the health of your family members, the cost of living in your area etc. We live in a very modest home (a ranch) in NJ and we bought it before the prices really spiked. Even so, between the $9K a year property taxes, food, gas, homeowner's insurance, mortgage, income taxes, life insurance, health insurance, disability insurance, utilities, our family of three just about makes it on an income over $100,000. We buy second hand cars, rarely take vacations, we only have one child and don't eat out very often. I also cook & bake almost everything we eat from scratch. But NJ has a very high cost of living - and a household income of $50K a yr won't cut it here. At least not without living on peanut butter and rice.

People that can't live on $50,000, cannot live on $200,000.

That depends on where you live. After a large pay cut, we find that our mortgage is more than 1/2 our household after tax income. We never eat out, drive cars that are 11 and 15 years old, buy goods at thrift stores, turn the heat low, and take cheap vacations (usually camping). We can not afford health insurance. We pinch pennies on top of pinching pennies. The median income for our area is much higher than $50,000 a year, which explains why it is such a struggle for us.

binary, your statement is untrue. Not everyone spends everything they have and more.

I agree Lovely. When my wife was laid off suddenly the mortgage on our little condo was more than half of our income. We bought such a small cheap place exactly for this reason. The cost of living is extremely high in my area and my American median income is enough that we can live paycheck to paycheck without splurging on things like eating out and having cable TV all while not going into more debt. The median household income in our area is about 50% more than what I make.

Lovely-2035151 at least you get to take a vaction. Forgot what that was like.. Thank God we live in Fl where we can use the fireplace for heat.

binary, that may be the case in some regions of the country, but I can assure you it is not the case in New Jersey. The median income in my town is, ready for this....hold onto your shoes....$84k! We do better than this with 5 people in the household. We live a good life, but not extravagant. We are not globe trotters, we do not own BMW's..but we are able to pay the bills and do a few things for personal enjoyment.

Like the other writer, my property taxes are also $9k year, not to mention $2k for auto insurance for two drivers with a clean record! We live in Southern New Jersey, so a dollar goes a little further than North Jersey, but as you can see by the median income in my town, $50k is nothing to talk about.

That being said, when you look at numbers on a national level you have to realize that there is great variability from region to region in our country. I think the article clearly stated that fact. The article was not about comparing what I have versus what you have, but to benchmark what is going on in the country as a whole. Ya need to have a basic understanding of statistics when quoting them!

Like every one else said its to many variables to make one judgment. The biggest variable is Location/region/state. The cost of living in some states/areas are ridiculous. Some areas of the country $100,000 is living paycheck to paycheck; other areas your living lavish.

It absolutely depends upon where you live! However, the NATIONAL median income really doesn't mean much. It's the median income where you live that is a usable statistic.

You can see that by just looking at housing prices. I've seen houses on HGTV that run $600,000+ in deplorable condition. Yet in a small down in the Midwest you could buy that same house for under $100,000 AND have a renovation budget to boot! That's also where you're going to find cheaper prices at the supermarket and cheaper gas. But you WON'T find a $50,000 median income either! You're going to find one in the $30 - $35,000 range.

It's all relative.

Binary, I have to ask: Do you have cable? I am paid more than $50k, and I don't have cable. I also don't have an iphone or a data plan. There are a lot of corners to cut, but I wonder how many you do.

I saw some firends lose their house to foreclosure, but they never stopped doing movies, dinner, full cable and Iphones with data plans etc... They do more than my wife and I and we make more than them (we have no iphones etc..) but we rearely dine out , we do have Directv but no movie channels... Figured out that they spent the mortgage payments on those things during the 2+ years the foreclsoure took, vacations to Atlanta and Puerto Rico too. so now I don't feel so bad for them... I guess the 1% should take care of them

@Red Shirt Ensign

Those friends of yours is a prime example of having your priorities a$$-backwards. If you don't discipline yourself to control your wont's then you will loose sight of your needs.

$50K is a lot of money to me, but I'm one of the fortunates who live in an area (east TN) with low taxes and affordable rent. I make less than $9 hr., pay $400 rent, and I know how to use on/off switches (electric has never been over $90). Believe it or not, I make too much money to receive food stamps, but I'm blessed to be getting by, literally living from paycheck to paycheck. So glad I made a decision many years ago to stay childless or I'd really be up the creek. $50K would definitely be a windfall here.

I live in rural GA on $60,000 a year with ease. I have enough not to worry about bills. I have a nice car and house, I drive down to atlanta regualrly to waste money on clubs and bars and shows, I have a lazy live in girlfriend who I feed and she makes no income. I have insurance, cable, high speed internet, pets, and hobbies and I take expensive vacations and eat out several times a week or cook elaborate meals. I have no debt on my car or anything else but do rent my 3 bedroom house.
If your complaining about life being hard and you make as much money as me or more I have no sympathy for you beucase i live extravagantly and with ease on $60k.

My brother-in-law in Kentucky has a wife and two kids. He makes $50,000/year and even with credit card debt out the wazoo, plus two car payments, and they still make it just fine. Of course, their mortgage is a little less than $300/mo.

On the other hand, my wife and I live in the Philadelphai area and make about $95,000/yr but have a similar standard of living. We have no kids, our cars are paid off, but our mortgage on a small fixer-upper rancher is $1600/mo. If we had two kids and and two car payments, we would be living paycheck to paycheck at best.

So, the buying power of $50,000 can vary pretty significantly from area to area. If you can't live on $50,000 it may be because you live in the Northeastern US.

You nailed it! Remember the GOP Congressman who said he was living "paycheck to paycheck" on $175,000 a year?

You can go broke on a quarter-million a year. All you have to do is spend a dollar more than you make.

Debt accumulates, interest increases, and eventually, you end up broke.

Learning to live on LESS was the hardest lesson I have had to learn. But as retirement looms, it is a lesson I have to learn - and soon.

david-3636731 You sound like a pompous a&&! You live in GA for god's sake--you should be able to live off of $60,000 comfortably. You couldn't do a quarter of those "extravagant" things living in a place like New York or Washington, DC. So, get off of your HIGH HORSE! You arse!

Binary... you make it seems like 50k a year is a fortune. It isn't if that is before taxes, that cuts into that 50k and then take out state and local now your talking about 23% of that 50k gone before you get the rest. Now if you own a home you have repairs that need to be done and regular living expenses that suck up the rest and that is just to live paycheck to paycheck. With inflation rising and not getting a raise in years that offsets even that to a point where some bills don't get paid (right away) and you claim that a family earning that couldn't live on 200k ? I know I could and even be able to save and give to charity.

I've been living on ~ $40,000 a year since becoming disabled in 2006. My medical expenses run 25-30%, housing almost 50%. I just moved to a less expensive house/area hoping to get the housing expense down to something reasonable. My 10 year old car has a new noise, which is a huge worry. I have enough to eat and consider myself fortunate in many ways.

Two lessons: 1-IT can all be taken away in a flash, by an accident or illness--count your blessings and thank God for continued good health. 2-Long Term Disability Insurance pays 50-60% of former salary (with no raises or bonuses), and is worth every $ spent.

@ Binary,

The Value of 50K a year depends where you live. Try to live in California on 50K a year with a family!

Like others have said, it depends.

SteveJ, I lived in Cali around about 1990 with a family of four on about 10K a year. I was in the US Army though and they supplied housing.

In Tennessee, I paid $300 for rent, which included electric, water, and heat. My car was paid for, insurance was $200 every six months, and since I was young, I didnt carry health insurance. Also, petroleum costs hadn't shot the cost of everything else in the world through the roof yet. So, just making $6/hr in retail, I was living like a king. When I got some bonuses and a raise to $7/hr, I was living in luxury.

Then I moved to Philadelphia - my rent was $750 a month, insurance was $1100 every six months, and I had to pay for water and electric. My new job paid $12/hr, but I still had to work nights at a gas station at $8/hr just to SURVIVE - not live in luxury, SURVIVE!!! Also, I was paying state income tax now as well - Tennessee didnt have this. I still didnt have any health insurance and barely had food to eat from one week to the next.

Most people who have never lived outside their home area don't realize the HUGE gap in cost of living from one part of the country to the other.

Jake the Duck,

When I moved to the Sacramento area in '95 with my family, it wasn't too bad. Coming from New York it was much cheaper. I was making about 50K back then and it was plenty. Now we live closer to San Francisco and let me tell you, it is expensive!

California is a big state, and there are parts where it is cheaper to live than other places.

My point is that using a median salary amount for such a diverse population may not really reflect an accurate statistic.

I have a fried that moved from CA to Wyoming, He made half of what he was earning in CA, but the house he bought for 65K on three acres would have cost over close to a million here. Both his kids went to college for free, low state taxes and the state subsidized his wife's business until it got going. The drawback was, they had to live in Wyoming in the -20 winters that last 9 months.

How close is $80-90k with taxes paid to $50k with taxes paid? Not very, if both have families. It doesn't matter how much you make. Family deductions are equal for equal sized families. Also, the person making 80-90 probably has a bigger home, so they get a bigger mortgage deduction. Heck, the person making 50k with a family may not own their home at all, depending on the market where they live.

I am a single person living on just over 50k, and I can tell you that I pay plenty in taxes. How about I stop subsidizing your mcmansion and your 5 brats? You made a choice to have kids and buy that house, you pay for them.

Honestly, you people don't think beyond your own problems at all, do you?

Wow viperlite - You might want to look at reality first.

I live on just under $40k and I pay federal taxes as well as FICA with no credits but the mortgage interest deduction. I also pay taxes on the modest interest I earn on my savings account. The standard 24% of my pay. Higher insurance and medical costs affect me at the same level they affect you - there's no percentage adjustment for medical benefits or procedures. Same with higher college tuition, fees & taxes. Remember, the "poverty level" according to the gov is about $22k, so there is no federal/state aid or handouts if you make above that amount. Chew on that one for a while.

Whow, viperlite!! I am with Matt and DB, I am a widow paying a single tax rate and I can tell you I pay plenty as a single. Look up the tax rates. Makes ya want grab below and cough three times for the doctor. What you say may be true if you have more than one in the household with personal exemptions and a mortgage, but don't drink the koolaid for the whole lot of us because that is just not true. I can tell you $50K and under pay taxes unlike the news media reports and where the news media gets their info has floored me for a looooong time. I know very few who hit the $50K ceiling, that don't pay taxes.

Curious what you pay in taxes, as most media outlets cite that figure that half of all households pay no taxes. I think people assume because they pay social security, medicare, and medicaid that those count as federal income tax (newsflash, they don't). Do you really think (if salaried) you pay the same taxes as someone who makes twice as much. Add it all up, and there is no way someone making $50k is paying the same state, local, and federal income taxes. I think people like to say they pay taxes, but most people only look at whether they owe or get a refund, and couldn't even tell you what they actually pay.

As far as differences between regional costs of living, this (along with medical and student debt) are probably the biggest factors. Its fun to compare "what you own" stories, but the fact of the matter is most folks spend more on basics like housing, cars, school taxes, and medical than they do on cell phones, internet, xboxes, dining out, vacations, and the like. These basic costs vary by region of the country, age, etc. (and how much "luxury" you splurge on). I get a kick out of people who say they own their car, house, boat, etc. outright and therefore need less to live on -- well didn't they need money to save and buy those things outright, no matter how long they've held on to them. Amazingly, many don't count as expenses the cost of paying for the last one and saving for the next one.

As far as raising brats, I have a couple of kids. I suppose you'd like this one to be the last generation, with noone having any kids as wages shouldn't cover the cost of such trivialities. Get your head out of the sand people. Instead of racing to the bottom, just consider that some things should be part of a living wage, like the ability to pay taxes (not just the ones you care about), feeding and housing your family, paying your debts, etc.

hate to burst your teaparty bubble viper but i make just a bit over 50k and pay a third of it into fica, i pay more in then someone that makes over 100k. the deduction rate is lower for someone that makes over 100k per capita as well. this makes it easier for them to deduct. my uncles brother does my taxes. he says its a rip off for people that make under a 100k a year. that most people between 22k and 100k are paying out more per capita in taxes then any other group. the 100k and up group are the ones most likely getting by without paying fica due to the easier deduction caps that they have.

eric1964...1/3 of it onto FICA ??...You need a new uncles brother.....max FICA combined was 7.65% for Employee....before the 2% reduction in 2011...so, your Max FICA tax this year was 5.65% on $50,000 at the most was $2,825....NOT $16,500 ( 1/3 of $50,000)...Last year at 7.65%, you paid $3,825.

There is no such thing as a FICA deduction. It is 6.3% of earned income up to a maximum of $6,678 a year. That means if you make $50,000 you pay $3150 in FICA, and if you make $100,000 you pay $6300. That is twice as much per capita for the person making twice as much salary.

JohnCarter-428979...."There is no such thing as a FICA deduction."

Really ???....It's deducted from your paycheck.....or sent in if you are self-employed and pay Quarterly Taxes.....6.2% for Social Security and 1.45% for Medicare.......Without the 2% 2011 reduction.

http://www.ehow.com/info_7792878_fica-deduction.html

Considering the median home price in the US is $225,000, exactly WHERE are you finding these $125,000 houses you're saying people "won't have"?

I'm not complaining...my husband and I do very well. But I also understand that a "median HOUSEHOLD" income is getting pretty much smaller and smaller every year, and I'll feel for the younger kids in our country for the next few decades, ESPECIALLY if they have college loans to pay.

Back to the $50,000......those who say NO WAY, I CAN'T SURVIVE ON THAT....move to a place that you can and stop buying things your DON'T need, live a simple, frugle life and stop being so materialistic.

Not that easy to do for lots of people:

1. You have to live within a reasonable distance of your workplace. Small towns don't generally have lots of jobs available.

2. You have to be able to sell your house, if you have one, and that's a hard thing to do in lots of places right now. You could always just move and let the bank foreclose, but good luck moving to a new town, renting a decent apartment, and getting a decent job with that on your credit report.

3. The expenses of relocating are not inconsiderable. A person living paycheck to paycheck would have to go into debt to move any significant distance.

The upshot of all this is that, whatever the merits (or lack thereof) of your advice, it's simply not practical for most people.

The median home price in the US is 165,000. In the mid west the median price is 135,000.

genafan, it's worse than that, JJ is claiming there are $50,000 houses all over the place just waiting for someone to snap them up. Exactly where ARE those $50,000 homes JJ? Alaska?

A house for $125,000? I don't even think there are apartments for that amount where we live in New York. If we could sell our house and move to a less-expensive state, we would. But right now, our mortgage (with taxes and insurance) comes to about $36,000 per year. The house is worth almost $100,000 less than what we paid seven years ago. We're not underwater, since we made a large down-payment. But that leaves no equity, or less than no equity once you pay a Realtor. Our small business (22 years old) is suffering from lack of clients or clients not able to pay their bills. Our employees are on the verge of being let go. Savings gone. Retirement fund gone. A steady $50,000 would be lovely, but not enough.

not true viperlite - Maybe if the family has 6 kids they won't pay taxes, but most do. I fall into that catagory and I still pay, both Fed and State.

If I made $50,000.00 per year, I could live just about any place I want in my area, and pay market-rate rent, or even in a house if that fancied me. I could buy a brand new car, with CASH money, not a loan. I could get a pilot's license. I could buy a snowmobile for fun in the Winter. A boat to take out on the lakes wouldn't be out of the question, either. I just think too many people want a BIG house, a BIG shiny gas guzzler, and piles, and mounds, and oceans, and reams of gadgets that really aren't needed. What's wrong with just a basic cell phone? That's part of why 50 grand isn't enough to cover the costs. Since when is a ranch in New Jersey considered "modest" when the house covers 3,000 square feet? It's just "me, me, me" and greed, greed, GREED. I think people who make 50 grand are in over their heads, because I seem to live comfortably on less than 20.

Back to the $50,000......those who say NO WAY, I CAN'T SURVIVE ON THAT....move to a place that you can and stop buying things your DON'T need, live a simple, frugle life and stop being so materialistic

Well then ... if they moved to some place like you suggest ... they won't find a job that will pay that $50,000 a year either. Median income DROPS along with living expenses. And, btw, I challenge you to find LIVABLE $50,000 houses ANYWHERE in the country.

WELL PUT JJ-836955 !

IBuyChinese, I want to know where you live?? Are you single or do you have a family? Do you know how much car payments are, and what kind of car will you buy? Do you know the costs of any of those things you have in your post?? Your attitude is evident, but your thinking is flawed. I agree, however, that some people live beyond their means, but not everyone does. We struggle to live on $60k a year for our family of 4. We don't drive new cars, don't even have auto loans, but then we're struggling with 4 drivers and only 2 cars! With the price of gas, it's good we only have the 2! Rent in our small town in MN averages $700 to $800 a month for a one or two bedroom, while the average single person tries to live on $7=9 an hour pay. Take home on that is only around $1,000 a month. You do the math. 17 years ago I quit my job with the government to be a stay at home Mom and raise my own children. At that time, my husbands income was enough to live on. We lived modestly, but we were still able to take a vacation a few times, we went to the movies, but not often, but we were able to pay our bills and give our children the necessities. At present time, and with few raises in pay, we are struggling and living paycheck to paycheck. Prices on everything have gone up while wages have not. I can not find a job, partly because I've been out of the job market so long, and partly because I'm 50 years old and vying for work with hundreds of 20 year olds. Life isn't just that simple. You can't just live on a certain amount of money everywhere in the country. So many people make generalized statements not knowing all the facts and not taking into consideration regional costs of living and situations. I don't think it's greed in the middle class that has made life tough, it's the fact that wages haven't kept up with inflation, and it's the shift of burden from the wealthy to the middle class that has effected us the most. There needs to be a more balanced approach to taxes and income disparity. I'm not saying that because you're rich you need to bail me out, I'm just saying, giving one class of people all the advantages and others none, you will do nothing more than cause civil unrest and a depressed populace. When people dispair and give up, then we all suffer.

125,000 dollar house in charleston comes with wake up calls from your local crack dealer. And apartments less than 750 dollars a month come with those lovely nightly drive bys.

One thing that would help would be to end exclusionary zoning. I wish they'd make a well-built, formaldehyde-free singlewide mobile home about 30 feet long. That's about 400 square feet. Need more room? Buy two and connect them with a hallway. When the baby comes along then buy a third. When the baby goes to college then he/she could take their unit with them as a gift. Beats dorm living for both cost and lifestyle. My unit is 52 feet long with 647 square feet. I've got about $30,000 into it after replacing all the plumbing and having Mr Roof put on their lifetime thunderguard shingles with full ice guard. After losing my job in Oct 2008 I moved the singlewide 300 miles south form Farmington Hills (Detroit area) to 55 miles east of Cincinatti. I went from paying $3,720/yr (7X the property tax rate) in lot rent to less than $700/yr in property taxes. The lot cost me $12,500 and the move totaled less than $10,000. I saw a show on PBS where a couple was living in a modest home in Long Island and they paid $10,000/yr in property taxes. So I can believe the $9,000/yr in property taxes for New Jersey. That is an obscene amount of money. My point is that being able to move your home would help. It would just be nice to have that option. But greedy local governments want to maximize their property tax collection. Snooty snotty home owner's associations aren't much better. The housing market is not free. You should be able to live there you want in a home of your own choosing. Our constitution says we have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In order to have life you need the necessities of life such as food, shelter and clothing and good medical care. You should be free to choose your own shelter. But then greedy bankers wouldn't be making mortgage loans and greedy insurance companies wouldn't be selling mortgage insurance and greedy local governments would be collecting less property taxes. And what's wrong with having just one child? The world is overpopulated. And instead of sending people off to fight wars why not send them to medical school and then ask them to just work for an hourly wage in a government clinic or hospital? We'd have to not allow medical malpractice suits anymore and just have medical review boards determine any wrong doing. If so then lose the medical license and possible jail time. The solutions are out there if we can just eliminate the greed and corruption and limit the world population to a sustainable level.

Living where you can find work is greedy?? I can't find work in my field in a podunk Midwest town (like where I grew up). So, my pay is higher than the median, but I can barely support my family in southern California.

You live where you work. Also -- if we all decided to do what you say -- we'd all move into the little towns and far-flung places and the cost of living would sky-rocket to beyond what it is now because of the influx of people. I know it's happened to me -- but I decided to stay.

Donna-397760: I won't give an exact location, only to say that I live in the Eastern part of the Midwest, around Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, those parts. I feel your pain, because I once lived in Minnesota. I had to move because it is more affordable for me to live here, on my fixed income, than it was in Minnesota. In cases of a red-hot economy like yours, I have to agree that 60 grand is not going to sustain a family of 4 in the Twin Cities, let alone other parts of your state, or the surrounding vicinity for that matter. So again, I had to move to a location where my fixed disability income allows me to buy food and basic necessities, and what ever pittance for transportation I can get with my 20 year old, rusted out junker.

Having less, really makes me appreciate more of what I do have. And I truly wish I had better options than Chinese stuff at Kohl's, because then most of us wouldn't be in these situations. We would be too busy making Burlington coats, Levis Jeans, Sunbeam Mixmasters, Hoover vacuums, and Mattel toys here instead. Then, spending time with our families during the Holidays. We were all handed a bill of goods!

First off I did NOT say there are $50,00 homes everywhere. I'm not ignornat, I was just using an example of $125,000 to a $50,00 home. Would it matter if I said $500,00 to a 300,000 home. I'm talking about lowering your standards so you CAN live on $50,00 a year, even if that meant having a room mate, or living in one of those "tiny homes" that seem to be doing very well on the market. My point is the average American lives ABOVE ther means, because they want to live good......nothing wrong with living good...but you really have to ask yourself....do you need such a large mortgage or can you find another way to put a roof over your head until you can save enough to get a house that suits your NEEDS not your WANTS. Hell I want a 100 foot yacht, but all I can afford is a 16 foot kayak on my income. With a kayak I pay no registration (Texas), no gas, no oil, and do not pollute. With a yacht there is HIGH insurance, rediculous amount for fuel (cost alot more at the docks), oil, maintenace etc.... . Do you see my point about standard of living? You may NOT want to live poorly and do without alot of you current comforts, but when you try to live like a king on a poppers salary you have just doomed yourself to lose everything. Yes things are expensive and it WILL NOT get any better because of the simple greed of the rich people in this world. I understand also that lots of people are "stuck" where they are and cannot move to a cheaper place.....I totally understand that...been there, done that. Been very dirt poor too and wondered where my next meal would come from....I learned from those leasons that I don't need that yacht to be happy, I am really happy with my kayak because its costs me less to own and use than a yacht would, and it takes me to the same places...just slower. Its a medaphor people, but I do own a kayak. Just trying to get people to be aware that happiness isn't found in a big house or an expensive SUV, or a ocean front condo. Stop, sit down somewhere quite, rethink your life and see what is important to you...then see what it takes to make that happen, then look at the options and pick the best one that will accomplish those dreams and goals....stop existing...start living...and its starts with what do you want out of life. Stay away from anything that will cause you to go into debt first off if it can be avoided (you can get by alot cheaper on a used car instead of a new one)...second take care of your body...it will get you thru life without problems if you take care of it. Once in a while you have to stop and smell the roses of your life and stop looking at the pollution that surrounds it. Enough said...hope everyone has a nice day even if its filled with gloom of financial crisis!

JJ – There is some truth to what you are saying but it is not that simple.

I live in rural farmland area! We generally only heat with a wood stove. We do “make it” but wouldn’t do so without the help we get from family. I am a stay at home mom by choice (truly raising our children is very important to us). My husband makes a little below the $50,000. Both of us are college grads. We don't own a home. We have worked very hard to pay off our mortgage sized combined student loans and succeeded only this year after 10 years. We make sure to pay all credit card debt in full monthly (can't pay it off when the bill comes, can't buy it!). We are not suffering (our basic needs are meet; though we do without a lot) but we couldn’t make it without me going back to work if it were not for the help of our parents. We live on property owned by one set of our parents thus only have to pay utilities for the housing. Yes, in a rural area, living frugally, we still couldn’t actually make it on this income. Since there are few jobs in rural areas that pay enough to make it financially beneficial to work after paying the daycare costs, I’d have to going back to work driving 3hrs/day back and forth to work with the kids in daycare and after school latch key programs. We have never bought new furniture (although I’d love to). We live in farmland area outside two major metropolitan cities. Since many people are willing to make the commute reality is outrageous. Whatever happened to valuing our children as a nation and making it reasonable to have a parent home with the children? It is important to us. We do it but it is not easy.

I'm not ignornat, I was just using an example of $125,000 to a $50,00 home.

If you weren't then you wouldn't use an example that doesn't exist! Too bad it obscured the rest of the point you were trying to make.

Beth-440386...from (#5.8).." And, btw, I challenge you to find LIVABLE $50,000 houses ANYWHERE in the country."

My girlfriend just bought a foreclosure 2BR/2Bath townhouse in Davie,FL...in a nice community, walking distance to many stores and shoppes.....for $34,900.....15 minutes from her new job in Plantation, FL (suburb of Ft.Lauderdale)...She has an MBA and took a cut in pay (to $65,000) at a smaller company, for a better life... she's 51.

Thank you Mike for pointing that out...some people NEVER shop around do they...so its a repo, or a foreclosure, or something else....its still a $50,000 or cheaper roof over your head Beth.....I don't and will never feel sorry for people who insist on paying outrageous prices for homes that they cannot afford to apy off in 15 years or less...and buy homes that are way bigger than they need. Hud homes are cheap also, try your local bank...I'll bet they have a LOOOOOOONG list of homes in your area under $50,000 in a good neighborhood.....or is that "below" you to do that!

One of my homes is on 120 acres of farm land in Kentucky and is appraised at $63,000. It is a nice small home, built in 1870. I was born in that house. I rent the fields to a local farmer for $7,000 a year. That pays my $490 a year property tax and my utilities with a chunk left over for other misc expenses. When I'm there I have a 2 acre garden. I hunt. I fish. I do a bit of consulting engineering work.

I could get by very nicely on just that, but I do own a couple of companies I founded when I was younger which bring me a very handsome income. They pay for my other home in Georgia, my old car collection, and my motorcycles. I've put aside enough to buy an island or something if I want. But other than my motor hobbies, my wants are simple. I drive a 13 year old truck. I buy my clothes at Walmart. My TV still has a picture tube. Etc. I don't have any debt. I deal only in cash. If I can't write a check, I don't buy it. Always have. Neither a lender nor a borrower be. Words to live by.

Before making assumptions about who receives welfare, you should check your facts before posting.

Check out fairtax.org to see how we can totally eliminate the income tax for everyone, both personal and business. Fairtax will reduce the IRS by 90% by switching us to a national sales tax. Everyone gets the prebate so no one pays the fairtax until their spending goes past the poverty level. Gary Johnson supports the fairtax and President Obama does not. I voted for President Obama but if the Republicans would let Gary Johnson run then I'd have to seriously consider voting for him.

stop it smh

I know several peple with Mom and Pop businesses. They are not asian but what you would call plain old "americans" and much cash is under the table. Local growers in Florida pay many of their workers (migrants mostly) under the table. I have family member just hired at a local hardware stare that is part of a national chain and she is paid under the table to avoid OT. Local accountant I know did books for a company who all of sudden reported to him a vast increase in income when they decided to sell. They'd been under-reporting cash all the time. he dropped them. Underground economy is huge but certainly not confined to any race. There is greed in all income levels. Your prejudice will cost you at some point, lpease try to learn from it.

The majority of welfare recipients in the US today are white. Just doing the math and based on population statistics, common sense would tell most of you that. If EVERY Black and Latino man, woman, and child in America were on Government assistance, it still would not add up much to the national debt. Simply put, there are just more white folks in this Country. So, it is contributing factors of high unemployment, CEO sky rocketing wages (that money has to be taken from someone in the Compnay, mainly the workers), and the high cost of higher education in this Country which contributes to high unemployment (how many of you are Java programmers or System design engineers??) that are destroying this Country.

And, although I know we are a global economy, we cannot continue the unfair business practices that our Asain associates are giving us. They de-value their currency to make it look cheaper to produce there than here, and they are not trading faily or equally. They buy very little from us but want to sell us their knock-off and imitation American products constantly. Tuition costs in the United States, as compared to China, are more than 50% higher for students attending a public, open admission college. So YES. More chinese have advanced degrees than most Americans. Why don't we lower our tuitions to compete.

This entire Capitalist system is broken. Its all about who winds up with the most money in the end. That is the only driving force behind it. That's why most of us are left out to dry!

Asians (and other immigrants) get mom& pop stores, and cleaners, and they hide a lot of their cash sales; no taxes

Just like lily-white multi-billion dollar corporations who don't pay taxes either by stashing profits in off-shore banks and excelling in deceptive accounting practices. And don't forget the threat of pulling up stakes in American communities if they don't receive a big break property tax reduction.

Always blame the immigrants first . . . . . . . . .

Sally, what a horrible racist comment. Why don't you get off your @ss and get your own mom and pop store.

It doesn't matter what race you are, everyone is greedy.

Good grief. You are ignorant beyond comprehension. I hope you never get behind the wheel of a big SUV; I would not trust a person with your level of sense on a Schwinn bike.

I agree with you Dan. Now, how are we going to fix the issue?

I agree with dan-4259216.

Well said dan

Very nice post Dan. Rest assured there are many people out there that agree with you. Above all else, corporate America needs to get out of the political arena. Lobbying behind closed doors has led this country down a dangerous path. But here is my problem, and I would think it is common to many voters: who do I vote for? How do I know which candidate is going in with America's best interests at heart? I want to vote for someone who understands and honors the ideas set forth in our Constitution, and is ready to make drastic changes to the current buy-my-vote ways of our congress, but can we elect a majority of these like-minded people? I don't know. But then again, I'm a glass half-empty kind of gal.

If you do not want corporations contributing to elections force the people in congress to make it against law to do so ... then have the law enforced ... (such as: freeze corporate assets of offending companies) ... BUT,DAN ... Do we the people actually want the government to sponsor the candidates? ... That has the tone of stetting up government under the format of a Home Owner's Association ... "Maybe we will, maybe we won't, (let you run) ... If you think you will, we may think you wont ... It won't really matter 'cause we are what matters" ... May come to be your local HOA song ... Another option: Out law Super War Chest strategies ...

The Beev, we don't do any of those things, yet live paycheck to paycheck. When your mortgage and homeowners taxes combined are over $1700 a month (over $20,000 a year), try raising a family of 6 on less than $50,000 a year. Payroll taxes (about $5000), food (about $7500), gas (about $3000), heating oil (about $3000), car repairs on those really old cars we drive (about $2000) and healthcare eat up the rest.

There is no extra for eating out, cable, new clothes, new toys, car payments, or fancy cell phones. And God knows how we will be able to send our 4 kids to college.

The Beev,

Not everybody who struggles is living like that. Yes, I have been in houses where the family was on food stamps and they owned over 500 DVDs. But these people are the exception and not the rule.

When you live in a thousand sq foot condo with no cable TV, cell phones, video games, or other "toys" newer than 5 years old, a 10 year old car, keep the heat real low, take your own garbage to the transfer station, scout out every stupid sale for groceries, buy clothes from thrift stores, and still live paycheck to paycheck, well it is pretty darn hard to pare back frivolous spending.

Lovely- exactly! I know many who live on 50K but like you said btwn mortgage, student loans, taxes, gas, food, basic utilities- that 50K is GONE. The idea that those living on 50K have fancy phones, new cars and the latest game system is a fallacy! My husband and I make quite a bit more than 50K and do have the ability for cell phones, cable tv and newer cars however, tack on even higher taxes on our income, and daycare costs- well- I wouldn't say we are struggling but the $$ is being used for bills. We live in a fairly low priced area of the country too in a 3brm/1 bath modest home for only 130K too.

@Lovely...to be fair to Beev...it sounds like you are living pay check to pay check because of the pay cut you mentioned above and are stuck with the expenses you picked up when you were making more (mortgage/taxes/4kids).

I think Beev is talking about someone who started out making $50K and didn't live like they made $50K.

First of all, the median home price in the US is $221,000....I just researched it. However, looking at national median prices is pointless since one must reside in a region and that is where their pay is generated. It does not matter to me that the median household income is $50k nationally when in my region it is $84k. It does not matter to me that nationally the median home price is $221k when I cannot buy one for that amount in my town without downsizing. It is all about perspective and where you actually live.

When people are collecting food stamps, liquidating their assets and still cannot make ends meet, that is a problem. No two ways about it. Remember, just last week a statistic came out that less than 1% of recipients of government subsidies are fraudulent, thereby demonstrating the 99% are valid. The benchmark for collecting these benefits for a family of 4 is $40k/year. Think about it.

Again, the median house price in the US is 165,000.

BTW--where do you get your information? I received mine from the US Census and National Association of Realtors. Now there are regions where it is at the level you descrive. Southwest in 2010 was $147k. Midwest it was $136k. I am thinking that the Northeast kills the average due to the dense population and higher prices, $263k.

Hamster1, that is the point, though. If we made $200,000 a year, we would have no trouble paying for college, funding our retirement, and actually be able to eat out once in a while. We would not be struggling. To say that I would not be able to live on $200,000 a year because I struggle with about $50,000 is not a fair assumption. I happen to be extremely good at saving money and if it weren't for that, we would not be able to stay in this house long.

Our $1700 a month mortgage payment is on the very low end for homes in my area. Our home is about 1800 square feet, which many would consider small for a family of 6.

.

.

bencas- My number is from the National Association of Realtors. In the Northeast the average price of houses sold last month was $224,400.

What some people seem to forget is there was a time where people's income was enough. Until gas, food, and other expenses increased and salaries didn't budge. I make about $50,000 a year. After taxes and benefits is deducted it goes to about $30,000. I live in the DC metro area where the cost of living is really high. It is not easy for people to move from an area where they lived all their life, where their family lives, and their job of 10 years just to live in a cheaper apartment.

Please tell me what these jobs are? Sounds to me like the economy is great. We would have full employment if only people were trained for these jobs that require "skills, but not college degrees"

So, since the economy is fine and there are plenty of jobs, why is everyone mad at Obama?

Pumping out septic tanks is skilled work, just ask a homeowner who had it done wrong. It takes years to train a crew to do the job right.

As I say later, I do it on much less and VA is not a "cheap" state. Most of my expenses are medical bills, insurance and medicine. I only have to look closely around to see people who are worse off. I do enjoy life. Enjoyed your message haha..

1. None

2. None

3. One - The same 39.99 plan I've had for 14 years

4. One 3-year old HP computer that doubles as my one source of entertainment

5. No TVs

I own a house and a 15-year old car.

How about you, Goto Afterburners? Don't throw stones....

1. Zero

2. No cable

3. Zero

4. One. Free dialup

5. One, it was a gift 5 years ago.

The thing that eats up people's paychecks are things like mortgages, student loans, health insurance, and utility bills.

You are completely right. Noone knows how to be poor. They just blame the president and spend, spend, spend. Which I guess in the long run is good for the economy too.

While the items you list are not necessities- they tend to be standard in virtually every middle class home these days. Out of your list- we do have cable, internet, 2 cell phones (no landline), and 2 laptops (which combined cost us 750 bucks to purchase via black friday sales a few years back). The cost of those extras monthly is 200/month for us (cable, cells, internet)- a bargain for the entertainment they provide IMHO. A night out to the movies costs us roughly 50-60 bucks for a family of 3 these days- tickets alone are 13/pp on the weekends. We haven't been to a movie theater in over a year!

Do families live on 50K? ABSOLUTELY. Can a lot of families cut back and make it on 50K? ABSOLUTELY.

The question though is - do you want to? Most people I know view your list as 'standard' for a middle class living. Right or wrong- that's just the way society is today. 50K a year will provide you (in our area) with the absolute basics. My husband and I work far too much to not want at least some extra niceties. Call us part of the 'we earned it generation' if you want to- but I see nothing at all wrong with wanting to have cable tv or internet.

I can't afford a home. My husband and I are solvent but barely. He has a car payment but I own my ten year old car.

We have old phones - no smart phone.

One t.v and it was cheaper to get the internet cable bundle or I would only have the internet.

We read a lot and do laundry at relatives houses.

I carpool to work.

I have no 401k or 403b or the like.

In my top salary ever made more than $25,000. I do not buy many things. I hate to go shopping except for what is necessary to sustain my life and take care of my creature comforts. I was a single mom at one time raising one child and going to school and making under 12,000 per year. I grew a garden, and still do, I don't like cell phones, mircowave ovens, prepackaged dinners, I have not bought a tv in my entire life. I have bought one computer and I do like the internet. I quit a job once because I became weary of having to be attached to a cell phone. I guess it is not that important to me and does not take one breath away form me to not use a cell phone.

New clothes and shoes, cars, never mattered to me. I have made many of my own clothes and when my son was young i made many of his clothes. As long as i can breathe and eat and be healthy and have a roof over my head I am happy and I don't need much else. I have many skills. I have learned how to make it on much less than other members of my family and my friends. It is not that I can't make more I just don't want more. I like living very close to the earth and being aware of my body, mind and spirit these are my real gifts and I like using them to be happy and healthy.

I have had a few times when I sought help and received it. My losses and gains are evidence of what is really important for me to remain true to myself. I do not push my lifestyle on anyone I like it though.

Goto Afterburners:
Let me tell you something. In the United States hard work USED to pay off. I understand your point however this economy is 70% consumer driven. So (not using credit) we are stuck in a rut of purchasing stuff. Planned obsolescence in manufacturing is another factor.

1. No X boxes etc.

2. I have cable. Cheapest level.

3. My cell phone is my primary phone. No home phone.

4. One computer.

5. One flat screen paid for in 2010 with CASH when I was making good money.

Another factor is companies look at us older workers as tech stupid morons who don't understand jack.

Well if it's true a simple data entry job may be hard to get.

So stay in the stone age and be obsolete, or be forced to learn the latest freaking gadget to find work. What happens when your employer hands you a tablet and asks you to drive your route delivering bread. "Logon the company's VPN client, you are on route D today. You need to set up your email and instant messaging and scm and crm systems.Make sure your Daily Activity report is done. Set up an Excel spreadsheet showing the 28 metrics we follow. Can you put that in a chart for me? Let's see what you come up with!"

Have a nice first day!

I guess stop over at Best Buy and have the Geek Squad show you the ropes and fast?

We ALL work in IT. We just don't know it yet.

Does not mean you need a ton of gadgets but you would be stunned how much I have HAD to spend on my own training and equipment to learn the damn stuff.

In some and in many cases these items though not all of them have become the neccisary tools for school children and tfor the entirety of doing every day family buisness.There are not as many or in some cases any people to call to assist you with your questions or needs e- mail addresses are almost a requirement for all applications ect,children in public schools at least were I live need computers or some form of electronic device to do there required assignments,there report cards and performance is posted on line only.Everone needs a cell phome bercause of the lack of public pay phones as compared to years past ,then you need a credit card to make calls from them.And if you have a cable based phone system you can not acept collect calls .So though some of the motre extravigant items may not be neccasaryMost of the electronics are to be able to function in the cuurent society

While I am living on $50K a year, in a moderate cost of living state, I'll answer your self-righteousquestions.

1) 1 origanl X-box, NOT a 360, that was GIVEN to me by my brother when he bought an X-Box 360 several years ago. Never bought a game for it.

2) BASIC. Only have that because it is required for my Cable Internet connection my wife uses for job search and kids use for Cyber-Home-school. Can't afford the $200 a month "fees" for local "Public School", we make $10 too much for a poverty fee waiver that "free Lunch" crowd receive.

3) Cell Phones: 2. One provided by my employer, and one supplied by company they are contracted to. They are both standard phones, NOT Smart-phones, don't have Web/text/etc. or other add-ons.

4) Computers. I have still almost every computer I have ever owned. The Altair 5400, Ti-99, and Commedor 64 are long gone, but most of the others are still around. Most of them would still work. The newest one is over 7 years old with a CRT monitor. I have NO wireless plan for the laptop and never did.

5) FLat Screen TV: ZERO!! My newest TV is over 7 years old and came with the house we purchased, and none are HD, some aren't even digital/cable ready. The next one is at least 10.

Like I said, we live in a "Moderate" cost of living area and $50K about covers "The Bills". Food, utilities, shelter, transportation. If you live in a "HIGH" cost of living area like New York, New Jersey, California, etc. where they pay $1700/month for 300 sq/ft "walk-up" "apartment", Gas is $5/gal, etc. then $50K/year doesn't go that far.

You left "Transportation" off your list. Car payments and insurance can chew a huge chunk out of a budget, so I'll put that in there too. Our "new" car, bought used with cash, is a 2003 Honda, the other is a 1996 Toyota.

There are a lot of us that grew up doing "with out". My kids are learning those same lessons. It is really tough when the "Welfare"/Public Assistance kids have better Christmases than your kids, because you EARN TOO MUCH to qualify for any of the "Santa" programs, or you aren't the "right" minority group. They get I-pods, Nintendo DS's, I-Phones, American Girl Dolls, etc. and yours get, well " socks and underware" and a new pair of sneakers to replace the ones with holes in the sole and toe.

It is pretty obvious to me from a lot of these responses that struggling on a $50K median income is not because people are stupid with their money. Sure, some people are stupid with their money (like the 500 DVD food stamp family) but it seems more and more that a lot of people are not stupid with their money.

Speaking strictly for myself: I am quite literally living a mid-seventies lifestyle with two modern conviniences: a computer with dial-up internet, and a DVD player. Of course I don't have to listen to any disco so I guess that's progress, eh?

More pertinent to your questions is the location you live in and the factors that affect the cost of living. We could all live in Northeast Texas (one of the most economical cost of living), but that isn't reality. I live in California, which has the 3rd highest state income tax rate in the nation. Additionally, our governor has just signed a bill providing state tuition funds to illegal alien students, and is seeking more $ from every single citizen through increases in sales tax, and income tax. Unfortunately, the public employee unions are also draining the financial coffers and have the governor in their pocket. Get ready for the financial default of California, and don't think it won't affect the rest of the Country.

1. One PS3

2. Direct Sattelite @ $84 per mo (can't even get local stations via antenna)

3. 2 for us and 1 for my senior dad

4. One computer / no plan just Wi Fi

5. 3 Flat Screens (saves energy over old CRT type TV's)

I have all those things and more. And quite frankly, it's none of the business of the jackass poster who asked.

1. How many xbox's, nintendo's, etc... do you own? Answer: 2 - an original Nintendo and a WII that was a Christmas gift.
2. What level of cable service do you have? Answer: none.
3. How many cell phones and what plan are you on? Answer: 2 pay as you go phones costing a total of $32/month.
4. How many computers/tablets and what plan are you on? Answer: 2 computers. One that is 5 or so years old and 1 that is new that has the programs our HS kids need for their school projects.
5. How many flat screen tv's do you own? Answer: none.

Shellie-657180

I have all those things and more. And quite frankly, it's none of the business of the jackass poster who asked.

Right on Shellie!!

And what is he supposed to do? That is a ridiculous comment. He is trying to get money into the economy so the economy takes off. It is your job to get a job and spend your mone wisely. Noone can help you but you. And don't wait on Barry, or Newt or Mitt. It won't and shouldn't happen. People who think, plan and roll with the flow are fine. The others waiting for someone to help them probably will be waiting a long time. Where is it written that the president gives you a job or gives you money or allows you to spend it. Nowhere! That is your job!

And Bush's policies cratered the economy! Wake up! Without the TARP the US would have entered a major depression.

Simple civics lesson will teach you that the President has little to no power to actually affect the economy. That's up to Congress. They pass the budget, they appropriate the money, they spend the money. All any President can do is try to rally Americans to get Congress to do things his way. A President can stand up and say "We don't need to build that multi-billion dollar airplane or ship, so let's end that program and save money." Meanwhile, the Senators and Representatives from the state that builds the airplane or ship are swapping votes to make sure the program stays alive for the jobs in their state. Sure, it saves American jobs, but at what cost to the nation? When will the real budget cutting begin?

Instead of blaming the driver of the bus you need to blame every member of congress they make and pass the laws of this country a president can only suggest they are given a script to read. "Ronald Reagan comes to mind as an "{actor}" who helped set this country on it's road to destruction.

1-No game system

2-No cable TV

3-One cell phone, Android without data plan. No land line

4-One computer, DSL modem w/WiFi that also works for my cell phone

5-One flat screen TV, purchased in 2005 when I was still working. I don't watch TV anymore

PLUS: TWO college educated kids

Priorities!

You must be from Creedmoor (psychiatric facility)!!!I'm so sick of everyone blaming the POTUS for things he has barely ANY control of...No president since the Depression Era has had much control of it. Blaming Obama for this economic crisis is like blaming him for your kids' poor school grades. In order to effective criticize the president effectively you've got to show that you at least have a rudimentary idea of how the branches of gov't work. He has very little to do with it-same as most presidents-you want to point fingers? Cast the blame on an obstructionist (republican)congress--point at the politicians who steal our money then blame us for not having any (as they reach ever-deeper into our pockets). You say all his policies HURT AMERICA--you are out of touch, friend...With access to sooo much information at our fingertips I'm always surprised how ill-informed the general American public is. Idiots with the power to vote are more scary than any gov't policy...

If there is a POTUS to blame for the horrible financial [poop]-storm we are enduring, it would be Dubya. Under his watch, we had the worst terrorist attack in US history which led to a major recession. Also, he started two unnecesarry wars that he paid for with money borrowed from China. When the next recession hit, he did the TARP which was basically borrowing billions more from China to prop up a few banks. It AMAZES me how effective the Republican spin machine is AND how readily people of the die-hard Republican persuasion drink the Koolaid served to them by their party. People actually have the guts to blame Obama for a recession that had already started when he took office. If McCain had won in 2008, the story would be NO DIFFERENT - in fact, it would probably be even worse, but the Republican carnival barkers would praise him for his "brave leadership" in tough times and defend his every move, no matter how good or bad.

Whomever wins in 2012 will take office just in time to take credit for bringing the economy back to life when they had nothing to do with it whatsoever, much as the rooster is eroneously credited for causing the sun to rise by going "ERRRR-ERR-ERR-ERR-EERRRRRrrrrrrrrrr..." at 5 AM.

I think it's a kick in the ass that every week, every paycheck I ever earned in America the government took money out of my check for medicare/medicaid to pay for other peoples diseases and sickness health issues. I am 30 yrs old and have no health insurance. Why couldnt they have taken that money I paid to them and use it for myself when the time comes? The old way isnt working. S.S. and Medicare is ponzi scheme that favors the old and the poor. Not the working.

Thomas.....I thought I heard about something to do with that. Not sure how the money is appropriated, but I know there's been some discussion on it. :)

yeah, the poor and elderly have it all.

Pax, frater. But the battle rages on,humanity on the line,yet ignorance reigns. Sadly